The Third Nutrient

[sixty_reefer]

I think a lot of us go through changes or directions in nutrients over time. I’ve learned the hard way that N climbs when P is limited. I’ve monitored P shoot up and down without N skipping a beat. More recently I’ve seen P quadruple resulting in N decreased by 1/3. I’ve gone from high N to medium to very low(over the years). All of which grew coral but only when P and C were in line or elevated respectively. It’s my assumption from this, that a lot plays into C. A better understanding could help us understand why some do well in elevated nutrient tanks. Having a hobby grade C test kit could potentially help a lot of us identify coral discomfort.

I see a lot of post people asking what’s wrong with my coral, then the parameters get listed and people make their assumptions. People say N and P can not bottom out, which I agree but again we are measuring what the tank did not consume. If you’ve mastered the tanks demand and forms of supplementation then those numbers (n/p @0) could in theory prove so. Nothing wrong with a clean plate so long as you don’t get too hungry before the next one.

I’m literally speak less not many seem to understand the difference between availability and residual. You know your nutrients well
In a way that’s we’re the experiment is going I will try to increase availability wile keeping a low residual

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Very interesting discussion!

 

[sixty_reefer]

Very interesting discussion!

Thank you Daniel, this is the result of a very long discussion with Randy in a different thread we’re we’re we talked about a possibility of the existence of a nutrient ratio in all our tanks, the nutrient ratio can’t be changed is one of those things that just exist in nature although limitations in the ratio can affect the overall well-being of a aquarium it follows the principle that all our tanks after the nitrogen cycle become dominated by heterotrophic bacteria instead of nitrifying bacteria. Heterotrophs are responsible for the Carbon ,Nitrogen and phosphorus cycle and limitations in nutrients will allow some of this nutrients to build up or to become limited.
So far is only being noticed that a abundance of Carbon can be detrimental to a reef tank that could cause dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria and a overhaul limitation in N and P could cause the nitrifying heterotrophs to stall and create a abundance of ammonia.
the above formula seems to work most of the times to identify possible limitations in home aquaria.
Other advantages of the formula is to aid a tank to reach maturity faster, under normal conditions a new system will be limited in nitrogen or Carbon to reach biological maturity if someone knows what’s limited in their system artificial nutrients could be added to aid the faster growth of the biological filter, I have been doing exactly that in my 7 week new system and it’s now more stable than many tanks at 7 months stage.

Unfortunately we haven’t reached a conclusion on the other thread although at the end we just decided that the discussion was just to complex and complicated to carry on a discussion.

 

[Dburr1014]

The reason I believe not all of us are experiencing negative effects from high carbon abundance events, may simply be that not all aquariums have the algae spores, dinoflagellates cells or Cyanobacteria present.

Interesting.

This statement I have a hard time with though.
Algae spores and Dino are literally everywhere. In every corner of the world and building. I'm thinking that in the aquarium, they have to compete like everything else and just may be outcompeted by other organisms.

 

[Dburr1014]

My observations in my tank.

I had some dinos at the end of 2021.
After battling them for 6 months finally winning had an outbreak of hair algae.
I was testing at that time almost weekly for
Alk, cal, n and p.
No3 was always <2.
Po4 was 0.08~0.12
It never budged. I would dose sometimes 5 ppm (per tank volume) no3 and my tank would just suck it all down. Most of the time when I tested no3 would be <1. I was doing this in hopes of lowering po4 to the level of 0.5 or so. Not realizing it was probably locked into the Rock and sand.
I manually pulled the hair weekly. I did notice that my front glass on the tank was staying clean when dosing no3. Where I had to clean every other day, is now once a week.
I decided maybe carbon dosing would help. I started slow and built up weekly and the cyanobacteria started to explode in the sump. This was this past 6 weeks or so. 2 weeks ago I slowed down the carbon and stopped all together. The good news is the hair has died back almost completely. Just a few patches which I'm okay with and the cyano is also dying back.
The carbon dosing has paled my acros or browned them out. I'm still dosing n (stump remover) 0.08ppm (per tank volume) and the acros are coloring back up.

Not sure where to go from here.
No3 is always low
Po4 is +/- 0.1, which I'm okay with now.
I'm not going to carbon dose again but still wanting more no3.
Do I dose daily as you have? Just keep uping the dose until I find an equilibrium? Will it ever flatline?

 

[sixty_reefer]

.

Not sure where to go from here.
No3 is always low
Po4 is +/- 0.1, which I'm okay with now.
I'm not going to carbon dose again but still wanting more no3.
Do I dose daily as you have? Just keep uping the dose until I find an equilibrium? Will it ever flatline?

Are nitrate always low or decreasing if they just low and stable I wouldn’t be too concerned and it may mean that your tank has found a balance, if they decreasing it may mean that there is a abundance of Carbon still and it may take a wile of dosing N until stability could be regained. Other thing to look for is your denitrifying bacteria if you have a lot of anoxic areas in your tank this bacteria will remove most of the nitrates before you able to test for residual

in my current situation I don’t have the need to add Nitrogen, am just trying to understand the ratio better and what I am seeing so far is that a abundance of nitrogen doesn’t affect residual nutrients immediately, over the last 3 weeks I have added over 500ppm of nitrogen to a 7 week tank without increasing my residual nitrates. They still stable at 5 ppm.
The only thing this extra nutrients are doing is increasing nitrifying heterotrophs.

 

[Dburr1014]

Are nitrate always low or decreasing if they just low and stable I wouldn’t be too concerned and it may mean that your tank has found a balance, if they decreasing it may mean that there is a abundance of Carbon still and it may take a wile of dosing N until stability could be regained. Other thing to look for is your denitrifying bacteria if you have a lot of anoxic areas in your tank this bacteria will remove most of the nitrates before you able to test for residual

in my current situation I don’t have the need to add Nitrogen, am just trying to understand the ratio better and what I am seeing so far is that a abundance of nitrogen doesn’t affect residual nutrients immediately, over the last 3 weeks I have added over 500ppm of nitrogen to a 7 week tank without increasing my residual nitrates. They still stable at 5 ppm.
The only thing this extra nutrients are doing is increasing nitrifying heterotrophs.

They keep going low as I add it.
I don't think they ever hit "0".
I do have a lot of rock in my sump. Well, now you got me thinking...

 

[sixty_reefer]

They keep going low as I add it.
I don't think they ever hit "0".
I do have a lot of rock in my sump. Well, now you got me thinking...

It’s worth to remove a percentage of the rock to make some more nutrients available

 

[Dburr1014]

It’s worth to remove a percentage of the rock to make some more nutrients available

OMG, I just had a ah-ha moment.
As I said my phosphate had been 0.1 +- 0.03.
I removed some rock from my sump hoping to raise N. Well, I removed rock but started with homemade stuff when I got back in the hobby in 2014. I made it with oyster shells.... They leach po4. Tested tonight po4 at 0.04 with my red sea kit.
I ordered a Hanna, should be here tomorrow so I'll check it again.
Still dosing no3 but cut back 1/2 of what I was.

 

[sixty_reefer]

OMG, I just had a ah-ha moment.
As I said my phosphate had been 0.1 +- 0.03.
I removed some rock from my sump hoping to raise N. Well, I removed rock but started with homemade stuff when I got back in the hobby in 2014. I made it with oyster shells.... They leach po4. Tested tonight po4 at 0.04 with my red sea kit.
I ordered a Hanna, should be here tomorrow so I'll check it again.
Still dosing no3 but cut back 1/2 of what I was.

I would imagine you starting to have a reading of nitrates now?

 

[Dburr1014]

I would imagine you starting to have a reading of nitrates now?

Yes, dosing less but still low. Thing about taking a few more pieces of rock out and see if that helps.
Need to make some caves anyway for the 2 new fish.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes, dosing less but still low. Thing about taking a few more pieces of rock out and see if that helps.
Need to make some caves anyway for the 2 new fish.

You can remove them if you wish although I believe that you may be almost there and almost depleted the source of organic Carbon that was causing your nutrients to lower that’s why you may be observing a small increase in phosphates

 

[Dburr1014]

You can remove them if you wish although I believe that you may be almost there and almost depleted the source of organic Carbon that was causing your nutrients to lower that’s why you may be observing a small increase in phosphates

I had a drop in po4.
From 0.1 average to 0.04.
If I take out more, I should process less and it should raise my numbers. (Per your theory)
Then when the Royal Gramma and the Midas Blenny go in, I'll need more rock. (higher load) the newly made caves I'll make for them will help.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I had a drop in po4.
From 0.1 average to 0.04.
If I take out more, I should process less and it should raise my numbers. (Per your theory)
Then when the Royal Gramma and the Midas Blenny go in, I'll need more rock. (higher load) the newly made caves I'll make for them will help.

I understood it wrong, it does makes sense

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

Interesting thread, I use ATI Essentials Pro and I believe this contains a carbon source but a mild one Calcium Formate. I have also started to dose ATI Nutrition N which is a nitrogen source but it doesn't show up on a nitrate test kit.

I have always had a problem with low nitrates even after I started dosing the nitrogen. My nitrates are down to 0.11 on the Hanna Ultra low-range tester and this is after I increased the amount of nitrogen I was dosing.

It's my understanding that your nitrate reading is a balance between the amount of food you put in and the amount of bacterial surface area for Nitrobacter to turn nitrate into nitrogen, as well as any filtration you may have.

I have also tried feeding more but just seems to be making my phosphates go up but has no effect on nitrate. I do have a heck of a lot of surface area and a reasonably dense sand bed.

Currently, I am at 0.11ppm Nitrate and 0.17 phosphates using the Hanna checkers, and I am dosing the recommended amount of Nitrogen based on the ATI calculator. I feel that I should dose more but they tell me not to do that with this product.

Do you think this problem of my nitrates continually going down is due to the carbon source in the ATI Essentials Pro? I could swap to ATI Essentials Plus which is purely inorganic alk. Also, will the dosing of the nitrogen eventually balance this out for me or do I need to change something?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Interesting thread, I use ATI Essentials Pro and I believe this contains a carbon source but a mild one Calcium Formate. I have also started to dose ATI Nutrition N which is a nitrogen source but it doesn't show up on a nitrate test kit.

I have always had a problem with low nitrates even after I started dosing the nitrogen. My nitrates are down to 0.11 on the Hanna Ultra low-range tester and this is after I increased the amount of nitrogen I was dosing.

It's my understanding that your nitrate reading is a balance between the amount of food you put in and the amount of bacterial surface area for Nitrobacter to turn nitrate into nitrogen, as well as any filtration you may have.

I have also tried feeding more but just seems to be making my phosphates go up but has no effect on nitrate. I do have a heck of a lot of surface area and a reasonably dense sand bed.

Currently, I am at 0.11ppm Nitrate and 0.17 phosphates using the Hanna checkers, and I am dosing the recommended amount of Nitrogen based on the ATI calculator. I feel that I should dose more but they tell me not to do that with this product.

Do you think this problem of my nitrates continually going down is due to the carbon source in the ATI Essentials Pro? I could swap to ATI Essentials Plus which is purely inorganic alk. Also, will the dosing of the nitrogen eventually balance this out for me or do I need to change something?

Hi there, there is two products from ati for nitrogen. One is ammonia based (clear fluid) and the other is organic nitrogen based (yellow ish fluid) both won’t show on a nitrate teste kit due to their ingredients. The reason you may not see them as nitrates is due to be working as designed and feeding coral and other photosynthetic organisms in your system.
the most straight forward solution for you to raise nitrates in your system would be to add calcium or potassium nitrate to the system and results should be almost instant (20 minute or so) having detectable nitrates is important to maintain a healthy heterotrophic bacteria population there is not a need to always reduce carbon as long as nitrates are added to counterbalance the equation.

I am in agreement that you shouldn’t overdose ati N due to be in the preferred form for photosynthesis organisms to assimilate including unwanted organisms like nuisance algae that will thrive if they are in abundance.

your nitrates going down could be down to a few different scenarios.
1. your corals could be assimilating more nitrogen reducing the nitrates that would be produced from the nitrogen cycle
2. It could be being assimilated by heterotrophic bacteria although you should see a reduction in phosphates if that was the scenario.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

Hi there, there is two products from ati for nitrogen. One is ammonia based (clear fluid) and the other is organic nitrogen based (yellow ish fluid) both won’t show on a nitrate teste kit due to their ingredients. The reason you may not see them as nitrates is due to be working as designed and feeding coral and other photosynthetic organisms in your system.
the most straight forward solution for you to raise nitrates in your system would be to add calcium or potassium nitrate to the system and results should be almost instant (20 minute or so) having detectable nitrates is important to maintain a healthy heterotrophic bacteria population there is not a need to always reduce carbon as long as nitrates are added to counterbalance the equation.

I am in agreement that you shouldn’t overdose ati N due to be in the preferred form for photosynthesis organisms to assimilate including unwanted organisms like nuisance algae that will thrive if they are in abundance.

your nitrates going down could be down to a few different scenarios.
1. your corals could be assimilating more nitrogen reducing the nitrates that would be produced from the nitrogen cycle
2. It could be being assimilated by heterotrophic bacteria although you should see a reduction in phosphates if that was the scenario.

The only bit I don't get is why do I need to have detectable nitrates if the organisms in the tank are being fed by the ATI nitrogen ?

Its the ATI nitrogen from this I am dosing https://atiaquaristik.com/en/?page_id=1490

 

[Dburr1014]

The only bit I don't get is why do I need to have detectable nitrates if the organisms in the tank are being fed by the ATI nitrogen ?

Its the ATI nitrogen from this I am dosing https://atiaquaristik.com/en/?page_id=1490

You are right, you don't need detectable nitrates.
Detectable nitrates are what is left over. You want to see them as a sign that everyone is fed and this is what is left over.
You don't "need" to see them, but that would be the hairy edge of not feeding everyone in the tank.

 

[sixty_reefer]

The only bit I don't get is why do I need to have detectable nitrates if the organisms in the tank are being fed by the ATI nitrogen ?

Its the ATI nitrogen from this I am dosing https://atiaquaristik.com/en/?page_id=1490

Having detectable nitrates is like a safety feature for nutrients.

In reality the organisms in your system are being fed by the nitrogen from ati and by the nitrogen produced in the system by decomposing food and fish waste, most of this will become ammonia that in addition to other macro and micro nutrients will give energy to zooxanthellae and feed coral etc..
excess nitrogen usually causes nuisance like dinoflagellates or GHA, the nuisance blooms is a way for a system to try and deal with excess nitrogen this is fairly common in the first few months of a system that hasn’t have microbiology and flora diversity developed.

Having nitrates detectable is a fail safe method as we can’t analyse for residual nitrogen at home. I use nitrates as a measuring unit as I mentioned in the opening text.

Residual of Nitrates in connection to N

Nitrates decreasing

It may mean N is starting to be less available

Nitrates at Zero

It may mean that N is not available in the aquarium

Nitrates increasing

It may mean N is starting to build up in our aquariums

“Nitrates decreasing” is a sign that Nitrogen is becoming less available in a system and Organisms in the system have swapped from nitrogen to nitrates to revert it back to ammonia, this process takes more energy and growth may stall due to that. the solution is to increase it by dosing nitrogen or increase feeding to regain balance.

from the opening text nitrates are also important to keep it detectable to avoid a limitation in heterotrophic beneficial bacteria as some species require nitrates as a energy source.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@The Opinionated Reefer this formula was created based on the interpretation of redfield ratio that it’s used to identify and resolve nutrient limitations in ecosystem and not used to implement a ratio between residual phosphates and nitrate as many folks believe.