Dropping nutrients while dosing phophates?

[jordanrb]

Optimal nutrient levels vary depending on the conditions in your system. Additionally, the optimal range can be very wide. In some cases, chasing a specific number can do more harm than good. So, is your tank new, old, or in between? Are corals doing well? Do you have algae or pest bacteria issues. Is your alkalinity closer to 7 dKh or 12 dKh? 30 ppm nitrate and .1 ppm phosphate can be just fine if you don't otherwise have issues.

That said, a little nopox (or just plain white vinegar and/or vodka) could drop the nitrates without lowering the phosphate too much... assuming you have a decent skimmer.

It's about 7 months old. Star polyps, zoas, gsp, hammer all doing fine. Alk stays between 8-8.4. Cal 420-450, mag 1300-1350. I had gha at the start of my tank but other than that no issues. I get minimal buildup on the glass every 3-4 days that I wipe off. The sps are in perfect par area. Have enough flow from two wavemakers in a 20g. I have no idea what is the cause other than the high nitrates.

Icp test results should be coming in about a week.

 

[jordanrb]

You’re not alone - I’m battling the exactly the same problem as we speak. When you’re close to 0.10ppm PO4 or lower, carbon dosing (I’m doing vodka) will reduce both NO3 and PO4. I ended up bottoming PO4 before NO3. I’m dosing 50mL of NeoPhos to raise PO4 while dosing 30mL of vodka to keep nitrate down. However, increasing carbon dosing (I went to 70mL of vodka) will produce bacteria slime all over the sump.

Many people will say - it’s easy, just do a 50% WC and get down to under 20ppm. Yes - that will work but my tank is 450gal and it will climb back to 30ppm+ in a few weeks.

What I’m doing? Going to get my sulfur denitrator back online since that will only reduce NO3 - carbon dosing does consume both.

Be curious to see your results.

Crazy thing is I've been doing 20% wc weekly and it still isn't enough to keep the nitrates down.

I am hoping the nopox will do it.

 

[backbayreef]

Crazy thing is I've been doing 20% wc weekly and it still isn't enough to keep the nitrates down.

I am hoping the nopox will do it.

I would test your source water (assume it’s RODI) and understood that you’re waiting for ICP.

Not sure how big is your tank but if you do a 50% WC, I would expect your NO3 to drop in similar percentage.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Did you start out with more forgiving SPS like Birdsnests and Montipora? Some more sensitive SPS will take a long time to start to color up or grow, particularly in immature tanks. Don't try to go too fast. For now, do bigger water changes... carefully... to keep Nitrates less than 20. Check your salinity also. I had an issue early on that turned out to be a bad swing arm hydrometer.

 

[jordanrb]

I would test your source water (assume it’s RODI) and understood that you’re waiting for ICP.

Not sure how big is your tank but if you do a 50% WC, I would expect your NO3 to drop in similar percentage.

Yeah I did a tank and rodi icp test. I'm hoping there is something there. If not it has to be the high nitrstes

 

[jordanrb]

Did you start out with more forgiving SPS like Birdsnests and Montipora? Some more sensitive SPS will take a long time to start to color up or grow, particularly in immature tanks. Don't try to go too fast. For now, do bigger water changes... carefully... to keep Nitrates less than 20. Check your salinity also. I had an issue early on that turned out to be a bad swing arm hydrometer.

Tried all the "easy" sps and still having issues lol

Would you recommend like a 30-40% wc? Currently doing 20% weekly.

My salinity is consistently 1.025. Using pre mix saltwater.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Tried all the "easy" sps and still having issues lol

Would you recommend like a 30-40% wc? Currently doing 20% weekly.

My salinity is consistently 1.025. Using pre mix saltwater.

I would still verify the salinity with a reliable instrument. If you do a 50% water change, it will drop nitrates and phosphates by 50%. Phosphates will likely rise right back to where they are now because it is bound in the substrate and will leach it back into the water. It may not help your SPS right away though.

 

[jordanrb]

I would still verify the salinity with a reliable instrument. If you do a 50% water change, it will drop nitrates and phosphates by 50%. Phosphates will likely rise right back to where they are now because it is bound in the substrate and will leach it back into the water. It may not help your SPS right away though.

Sorry I should have been more clear. I'm using premium but I check with a refractometer always.

I will try a 50% next week as I just did one last night

 

[sdreefer619]

I imagine that your whole tank would turn milky white, calcium crashed, and pH went thru the roof (9+). Almost everything would die at that concentration, maybe softies and fish might survive unless immediate action was taken.

No cause I caught it on time. Water changes is your friend just like nutrient control

 

[sdreefer619]

You’re not alone - I’m battling the exactly the same problem as we speak. When you’re close to 0.10ppm PO4 or lower, carbon dosing (I’m doing vodka) will reduce both NO3 and PO4. I ended up bottoming PO4 before NO3. I’m dosing 50mL of NeoPhos to raise PO4 while dosing 30mL of vodka to keep nitrate down. However, increasing carbon dosing (I went to 70mL of vodka) will produce bacteria slime all over the sump.

Many people will say - it’s easy, just do a 50% WC and get down to under 20ppm. Yes - that will work but my tank is 450gal and it will climb back to 30ppm+ in a few weeks.

What I’m doing? Going to get my sulfur denitrator back online since that will only reduce NO3 - carbon dosing does consume both.

Be curious to see your results.

Crazy thing is I've been doing 20% wc weekly and it still isn't enough to keep the nitrates down.

I am hoping the nopox will do it.

More frequent water changes like 3 days you’ll notice it. Weekly water changes is like the norm

 

[backbayreef]

I kept forgetting why I kept going back to this forum… sigh

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

My tank has always been high in nutrients since day one. I have a somewhat difficult time with sps and the only thing I can try and improve is the nutrients. My nitrates stay around 30ppm and phosphates around .1.

I want to start dosing nopox but I dont want my phosphates to bottom out. Can I dose neophox while dosing nopox if the phosphates start to drop too low or could that cause an issue?

I do not see any reason to act on those levels. They are both in my recommended target range.

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/
from it:

4. What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

10:1 is ideal

I do not think there is any evidence that targetting ratios is desirable, and often is very misleading. I strongly recommend that reefers forget the word ratio in the context of nutrients.

Targeting both N and P to appropriate ranges cannot ever go wrong, but ratios can, such as both being too high or both too low.

 

[sky414]

Nopox works mostly on nitrates, does little to remove phosphates (regardless of what RS says) so go ahead.

.1ppm phosphate is a good level in my mind and sure, if they need a bump, go ahead.

Agreed. I dose nopox for nitrates and I have a reactor for phosphates. Goal is 10 nitrates, .1 ppm phosphates. Before the reactor, Hannah was showing more than .9 ppm phosphates, regardless of of nopox dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Agreed. I dose nopox for nitrates and I have a reactor for phosphates. Goal is 10 nitrates, .1 ppm phosphates. Before the reactor, Hannah was showing more than .9 ppm phosphates, regardless of of nopox dosing.

How do corals look before and after/during this lowering plan?

 

[sdreefer619]

10:1 is ideal

I do not think there is any evidence that targetting ratios is desirable, and often is very misleading. I strongly recommend that reefers forget the word ratio in the context of nutrients.

Targeting both N and P to appropriate ranges cannot ever go wrong, but ratios can, such as both being too high or both too low.

Have you heard of dr redfield?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Have you heard of dr redfield?

Of course. He was a brilliant oceanographer that knew nothing about reef tanks (he lived long before they existed) and did not give us anything that helps set target levels.

Try Liebig instead:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/forget-redfield-liebig-is-the-man.1176/

 

[sdreefer619]

Have you heard of dr redfield?

Of course. He was a brilliant oceanographer that knew nothing about reef tanks (he lived long before they existed) and did not give us anything that helps set target levels.

Try Liebig instead:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/forget-redfield-liebig-is-the-man.1176/

Good read great chemist.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks. :)

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

Yeah I did a tank and rodi icp test. I'm hoping there is something there. If not it has to be the high nitrstes

My 2c - It's not the nitrates. That's not a bad number. Too much misinformation around certain ratios like what Dr. Holmes stated.

I would be willing to bet you either have some type of high pollutant (aluminum, neodymium), you are lacking a couple of major trace (Fluoride, Iron, Iodide), high DOC (dissolved organic carbon which the SAC254 number will show on the ICP), or you are running into an issue with a pathogenic bacteria that is being fueled by high DOC's.

SPS are very trace element hungry, and absolutely require more attention to chemistry. I definitely don't believe that overall they are easier or harder than any other coral once you know what they need and dial that in. Try some Catalytic Activated Carbon (CAC). Must be CAC and not traditional, but it does a fantastic job of keeping your DOC under control. I run it 24/7 without issue.