Dosing your top off water

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you saying you can or shouldn't add magnesium to a ATO water?

If the ATO also contains limewater, then no, I would not add it. It simply precipitates and reduces the alkalinity.

I discuss it here:

Aquarium Chemistry: Magnesium And Strontium In Limewater ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

You could just add an ordinary magnesium supplement into an ATO by itself, but that seems unnecessary since magnesium depletion is very slow and once a week or once a month additions are usually adequate if you do not use a dosing pump. You could also just boost the salt mix you use for water changes with extra magnesium. I did that for years, but have determined I really don't need much in the way of magnesium supplements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wont second guess you Randy! However, it does work wonderfully in my case.

Maybe you need very little supplement. I'd suggest trying without it for a bit and watching the alkalinity.

You do not see undissolved material left in the 5 gallons after it has set for a bit?

FWIW,
Tropic Marin's directions say it should be added dry:

"Sprinkle Tropic Marin® BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF onto the surface of the water in a place with a strong current, preferably in the filter sump, making sure that no undissolved crystals come into contact with the creatures. If this is not possible, we recommend the use of BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF Liquid Set."

and I discuss it here (which will be published in an updated form in a couple of weeks):

Chemistry And The Aquarium: How To Select A Calcium And Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

from it:
One-part balanced additive systems: Salt Mixtures
Another type of balanced one part additive is comprised of a simple dry mixture of sodium bicarbonate (or carbonate) and calcium chloride. Just as with the two-part additives described below, this type of system can be further formulated to have a natural seawater residue after removal of calcium carbonate. Tropic Marin’s Biocalcium seems to fall into this category, though it’s written descriptions are notoriously difficult to interpret. It costs about $8 for 500 grams (estimated to contain about 1800 meq of alkalinity), so that puts the cost at about $4.40 per thousand meq of alkalinity. It claims to add 79 trace elements to the tank, along with the calcium and alkalinity, but doesn’t specify amounts for any of them.


You cannot mix this type of additive in water prior to adding it to a tank. If you do, the calcium will react with the carbonate present to form insoluble calcium carbonate. Consequently, the directions advise adding it directly to the tank. If you do, be sure to add it in a high flow area away from corals (like a sump), as the solids are reported to irritate corals if they land on them.


If you use a product like this, be sure to keep it as dry as possible, even to the extent of keeping it in a sealed container to keep out atmospheric moisture. If moisture enters the mixture, it may allow the formation of undesirable calcium carbonate.


Continual use of products like this will increase the salinity in the tank. The rise in salinity over time can be roughly calculated, though not knowing exactly what is in it makes the calculation only a ballpark figure. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined below to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100-gallon tank (50 meq/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S =35). In a high demand tank (defined below to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100-gallon tank (600 meq/day), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using this type of additive, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

 

[mrcoffee2]

Maybe you need very little supplement. I'd suggest trying without it for a bit and watching the alkalinity.

You do not see undissolved material left in the 5 gallons after it has set for a bit?

FWIW,
Tropic Marin's directions say it should be added dry:

"Sprinkle Tropic Marin® BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF onto the surface of the water in a place with a strong current, preferably in the filter sump, making sure that no undissolved crystals come into contact with the creatures. If this is not possible, we recommend the use of BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF Liquid Set."

and I discuss it here (which will be published in an updated form in a couple of weeks):

Chemistry And The Aquarium: How To Select A Calcium And Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

from it:
One-part balanced additive systems: Salt Mixtures
Another type of balanced one part additive is comprised of a simple dry mixture of sodium bicarbonate (or carbonate) and calcium chloride. Just as with the two-part additives described below, this type of system can be further formulated to have a natural seawater residue after removal of calcium carbonate. Tropic Marin’s Biocalcium seems to fall into this category, though it’s written descriptions are notoriously difficult to interpret. It costs about $8 for 500 grams (estimated to contain about 1800 meq of alkalinity), so that puts the cost at about $4.40 per thousand meq of alkalinity. It claims to add 79 trace elements to the tank, along with the calcium and alkalinity, but doesn’t specify amounts for any of them.


You cannot mix this type of additive in water prior to adding it to a tank. If you do, the calcium will react with the carbonate present to form insoluble calcium carbonate. Consequently, the directions advise adding it directly to the tank. If you do, be sure to add it in a high flow area away from corals (like a sump), as the solids are reported to irritate corals if they land on them.


If you use a product like this, be sure to keep it as dry as possible, even to the extent of keeping it in a sealed container to keep out atmospheric moisture. If moisture enters the mixture, it may allow the formation of undesirable calcium carbonate.


Continual use of products like this will increase the salinity in the tank. The rise in salinity over time can be roughly calculated, though not knowing exactly what is in it makes the calculation only a ballpark figure. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined below to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100-gallon tank (50 meq/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S =35). In a high demand tank (defined below to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100-gallon tank (600 meq/day), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using this type of additive, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

Thanks for that. You answered a question I have been trying to figure out for months.

It is slightly cloudy when added. Truth be told I'd be scared to stop since I have been doing it for so long. I really have seen wonderful growth in my SPS since adapting this behavior from a local reefer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for that. You answered a question I have been trying to figure out for months.

It is slightly cloudy when added. Truth be told I'd be scared to stop since I have been doing it for so long. I really have seen wonderful growth in my SPS since adapting this behavior from a local reefer.

Is this the only supplement you use?

What is the tank alkalinity?

 

[mrcoffee2]

Besides mag that is all I add.

I'll get a test kit this week and check.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, let us know what you find.

 

[mrcoffee2]

Ok I picked up a red sea alk pro kit. I have never used one but if I read it correctly it is showing 7sh? I stopped adding as soon as the color changed to pink

The water I used is from my 40G DT tank that has not had a WC for 2 months.

My phone hates doing portrait pics sorry its on the side.

 

[mrcoffee2]

Ok I just topped off the tank (I do it manually every night when I get home). I let the cloudiness dissapear and then did another reading it looks like it is significantly higher. I probably messed up the first reading but this time it looks to be 9sh

 

[mrcoffee2]

Ok here is the dKH of my 16G that holds all of my SPS. It looks to be about 7.5 after the top off. I should mention I did suck out 1G of water last week to remove the detrius build up. I have to do this once every couple months in this tank since I run it BB.

Here is a 2 month and 10 day growth pic. The colors are fading but I wonder if that is due to lighting being so close. Take notice of the birdsnest growth.

 

[mrcoffee2]

Here is a pic of my 40g which has not had a WC in 2 months. I should also mention I dose aquavitro fuel twice a week and spot feed my acans. I find if I don't dose something that gives them amino acids then they start to get pretty unhappy.

Also to the OP I am sorry for hijacking this thread.

 

[mrcoffee2]

Here is my 8G. Hasnt had a WC since my son was born. Hes 4 months and 2 weeks. I do have this weird red turf algae growing in it.

 

[phillrodrigo]

Dosing magnesium is pretty pointless. The only time I use my magnesium is to bring up my water for a water change. After that it stays stable. I don't even dose calcium either. I do dose alk

 

[mrcoffee2]

I dose mag because I had a small byprosis problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You dose it in an ongoing fashion for the bryopsis, or is it gone?

The cloudiness was from the top off water, or something else?

 

[mrcoffee2]

You dose it in an ongoing fashion for the bryopsis, or is it gone?

The cloudiness was from the top off water, or something else?

I was directing that to Phillrodgo. The Bryopsis is pretty much gone has been for a while I just kept going with Mag because it doesnt hurt from what I read.

The cloudiness was from the top off water, it is cloudy for a good 2-3 mins after I top off.

How are my dKH levels?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They are fine, assuming the readings do not reflect significant suspended fine particulate calcium carbonate.

 

[mrcoffee2]

I guess I will keep doing it since it works for me. I apologize for recommending it on one of your threads as I don't have the scientific background as you to back it up, and it is not something the manufacturer recommends.

On a side note I would be REALLY interested if you were to give it a try. Not in any DT, but a QT tank with some green slimer acros or something that isn't too expensive. I don't know of anyone else that does this besides the guy I adapted the behavior from and would be thrilled to see what you had to say.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Don't ever hesitate to say what you think in this forum. Ideas live and die on their own merit, not who says them.

Some of the calcium and alkalinity will stay in solution and that must be enough for you, so there noi reason to change if it is working, at least at this load.

 

[dangros]

With respect to dosing limewater: I have 2 Brute cans, one for RODI and one w/IO salt + RODI. The salt water Brute container also has a powerhead and heaters due to the insanely low temps reached in my garage (I live in N. Va).
1) Would putting kalkwasser in the rodi Brute be ok? Especially since that water is used to make salt water in the other Brute?
2) Also, if I put limewater in my ATO reservoir, will it clog up my Tunze Osmolator pump? If so, can i just clean the pump w/vinegar periodically?
3) My kalkwasser was purchased from 3little fishies many years ago. It sat around for at least 5 years but now that I'm back in the hobby, is it ok to use? Does it have a shelf life? I read in one of Randy's posts that it can react w/CO2 and become less useful - but I'm not sure if that is the case for the pre-mixed powder.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I mix limewater and salt water in Brute cans, but you wouldn't want much intermixing of those two solutions.

So if you try to use the same can, you probably want to fully empty it between types of use.

Some people use Tunze Osmolators for limewater, but I do not know long it might be before it clogs. Taking only clear water from above the bottom would help that.

Calcium hydroxide does have a shelf life, depending on how it is protected from air. Most of it is probably still good, but some is likely converted into calcium carbonate.