Dropping Phosphates causing issues

[ocncheffy]

So after some testing neglect, I've discovered my phosphates hitting a .35 with the Hannah Phosphorus checker and I'm attempting to drop it now. The problem is, whenever I seem to add GFO to the system to drop the phosphates, my sps seem to get burnt tips and are not happy. Testing my alkalinity shows 7.5 consistently with my doser keeping it in check, again with a Hannah tester. Do I just keep grinding through the phosphate drop with GFO until it's at an appropriate level, then change/use less to maintain? I've used GFO before but never seem it affect my SPS like this... My nitrates are around 5ppm at the moment if that helps.

Thanks,

 

[Silent]

You don't want to drop phosphates rapidly. Take it slow.

 

[Jay Tosi]

A rapid drop in phosphate can be very bad for corals, especially in sps. It is a rapid change in water parameters and can seriously damage all corals. I would take it slow and uselittle gfo at a time or none at all, what other options do you have for nutrient removal? I would suggest a refugium with macro algae or a reactor with macroalgae, phosphates should be around 30-50 ppb

 

[ocncheffy]

So how do folks go about adding GFO to the system with affecting SPS too much? It it just simply just by using much less?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

From my experience dropping phosphates from .5ppm to .05-.1ppm in one dose of lanthanum chloride has never caused an issue for me. I keep 5 difference species of SPS and quite a few LPS and zoas.

 

[ocncheffy]

From my experience dropping phosphates from .5ppm to .05-.1ppm in one dose of lanthanum chloride has never caused an issue for me. I keep 5 difference species of SPS and quite a few LPS and zoas.

Yeah it's strange, If I leave GFO out of my system, my acros seem to perk up again but do not have full color as the phosphates are super high. Growth is almost null as well. I'd like to get to 50ppb and go down to almost no GFO to maintain. I have a fuge with a bunch of chaeto growing quite well, which is keeping nitrates in check.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

.35 ppm phosphate is a bit high, I would imagine the acros would do much better at 50ppb (.153ppm). Many would argue that .153 ppm is also high. If things are doing well then I would never recommend chasing numbers. Keep testing regularly so you are aware of trends. If getting to 'ideal' numbers is causing stunted growth and overall unhealthy appearance then I would just stay at .35 ppm and keep a close eye on everything.

 

[ScottB]

Yeah that seems unusual to have high nutrient with moderate ALK and still burn tips. It is either something else entirely, or the pace of change. Your corals slowly adjusted to a gradual increase in PO4, so reversing has to be slow and steady. (And annoying to manage, but...)

I keep an undersized, but always fresh amount of Rowaphos in a reactor plugged into APEX. After some trial/error, I seem to have settled at about a 4 hour run time each day to keep .05 to .09. But I was coming from a dangerously low nutrient level, so it was easier to raise than to drop them.

How much algae is in the display?

 

[ocncheffy]

Yeah that seems unusual to have high nutrient with moderate ALK and still burn tips. It is either something else entirely, or the pace of change. Your corals slowly adjusted to a gradual increase in PO4, so reversing has to be slow and steady. (And annoying to manage, but...)

I keep an undersized, but always fresh amount of Rowaphos in a reactor plugged into APEX. After some trial/error, I seem to have settled at about a 4 hour run time each day to keep .05 to .09. But I was coming from a dangerously low nutrient level, so it was easier to raise than to drop them.

How much algae is in the display?

There is zero algae in the display except on the burn tips of the SPS. Some pieces of LPS have small "Fluffs" of algae on them, and I can only assume this was due to the high phosphates. Today I'll most likely be down to .15 so I think i'll change it less often and decrease the amount I use. See if things improve.

 

[Larry L]

Look into any of the lanthanum chloride products, they reduce phosphates in a much more predictable way than GFO, and (if you are careful about the dosage) you can drop your phosphates as fast or slow as you want without bottoming out.

I wrote a calculator to help with getting the dosage right: http://larryl.emailplus.org/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html

 

[ScottB]

There is zero algae in the display except on the burn tips of the SPS. Some pieces of LPS have small "Fluffs" of algae on them, and I can only assume this was due to the high phosphates. Today I'll most likely be down to .15 so I think i'll change it less often and decrease the amount I use. See if things improve.

Roger that, just checking regarding algae. I know it is hard to dial down nutrients with much precision, but going really slow is less stressful on your sticks.

Personally (and this can wait) I cut tips or branches back into living flesh once algae has attached.

 

[Silent]

You really need to have a good skimmer for lanthanum chloride dosing and carbon dosing. The skimmer removes the resultants from these things. If your skimmer is not good enough than there can be side effects so-to-speak.

 

[jda]

When using GFO, use a very small amount and change it often. Also, run the flow through there like make a few gallons per hour when fresh. GFO is fine to use... using it too fast can be a problem.

 

[DirtMcGurt]

@ocncheffy you mentioned your Hannah checker at the top of the thread. Was that .35 Phosphorus or .35 Phospates?

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Yeah it's strange, If I leave GFO out of my system, my acros seem to perk up again but do not have full color as the phosphates are super high. Growth is almost null as well. I'd like to get to 50ppb and go down to almost no GFO to maintain. I have a fuge with a bunch of chaeto growing quite well, which is keeping nitrates in check.

Have you considered the fact that your system might be nitrate limited and that is why your phosphates are so high? I think this is what is happening to my system as well. I did an icp test and everything is perfect except the nitrates being almost dead 0.

 

[ocncheffy]

@ocncheffy you mentioned your Hannah checker at the top of the thread. Was that .35 Phosphorus or .35 Phospates?

Sorry I should have made it more clear. It was .35 phosphate converted from 114ppb phosphorus.

 

[ocncheffy]

Have you considered the fact that your system might be nitrate limited and that is why your phosphates are so high? I think this is what is happening to my system as well. I did an icp test and everything is perfect except the nitrates being almost dead 0.

I was also thinking this! I ran nopox as well, around 4ml a day to keep nitrates low and I had thought this was the inital issue when my SPS looked poor. I've since stopped nopox for a few weeks now and increased feedings to bring up nitrates. I understand there has to be a balance and this could have been the issue.

 

[Waters]

As stated, just start with a small amount, and test daily. You can fine tune the amount of GFO you are using/flow through the reactor/feedings/water changes based on your daily phosphate tests.

 

[ScottB]

Have you considered the fact that your system might be nitrate limited and that is why your phosphates are so high? I think this is what is happening to my system as well. I did an icp test and everything is perfect except the nitrates being almost dead 0.

I think you are on to something there. IME, dosing Nitrate in the absence of dosing Phosphates, my phosphates fall. Your theory fits my repeated experience. In fact I just had to change my dosers to stop nitrates (well over 20) as my phosphates were crashing despite PO4 dosing.

Do we take from this that the OP might be better served by dosing nitrates to 10-20?

 

[Macdaddynick1]

I think you are on to something there. IME, dosing Nitrate in the absence of dosing Phosphates, my phosphates fall. Your theory fits my repeated experience. In fact I just had to change my dosers to stop nitrates (well over 20) as my phosphates were crashing despite PO4 dosing.

Do we take from this that the OP might be better served by dosing nitrates to 10-20?

I just started dosing nitrates yesterday. Hopefully I can see some improvements. Do you mind telling us what your mixture is and how much do you dose?