burningbaal
Active Member
Okay, hopefully the title is useful, but I'm open to suggestions. I'm planning a build of a big tank for next year (probably 180, but I might go 30" deep for a 210). Note there's also a pending question about what I should do for the DT's bean animal to handle this idea smoothly, but this is mostly concerned with how to do the actual fuge/surge section.
So: I'm planning to have a big giant fuge above the DT, so it will gravity feed into the DT and be fed from a Tee off the return's line. I think this means I need to put a gate valve on the DT's return line so a small amount is pushed up into the fuge, but I'll have a ball valve on the line to the fuge too so it can be turned off.
Why do you have this crazy idea, Keith?
I love the idea of doing a real surge, I've liked the idea for years. It's cool for imagining things are in a tidal zone, it's cool for replicating big waves/storm mode, etc. but it is LOUD because the siphon is constantly opening and closing, also you get lots of air in the tank when that siphon is changing state. So I want to be able to have a normal 'show' tank when I want it quiet and no air bubbles, but I also just love the idea of doing this. Also, running a surge all the time makes an ATO not work because the water level is supposed to change all the time. so by having the surge only on sometimes, you can only run the ATO when not running surge mode.
OK, what's the idea?
I'll add pictures ASAP, maybe tonight...but here's the idea:
Have a bean animal in the fuge, but only the siphon will be the fuge. For those who already know a bean animal, skip the rest of the paragraph. A bean animal overflow normally has three pipes in an overflow box. one (the 'siphon') has a valve to slow it to be a full siphon, just less than the amount the return pump is pushing into the tank. One (the 'open') looks similar, but it has a little airline poked out its top and the airline runs back down until just above the desired water line. In normal use, this airline's end is dry so it never draws a siphon, but if something goes haywire, it will turn into a full siphon as the tank water level rises. The final tube is the 'emergency' and just ends somewhere above the desired water level, the idea is if something really goes wrong with the others, this one should normally be dry, so it should be an easy backup. The idea is only the first two ever are wet, and the second tube has no valve so when it needs to go siphon (because the airline's end is submerged), it does so without restriction. The big idea is that by going full siphon on one, and leaving just a trickle down the 'open', everything is dead silent. BTW, best plan is to put the other end of the siphon pipe under the sump water level since it has no air to bubble and let the 'open' fall just above the water line, or some do a tee so it has a straight fall to below the water and an escape above water level for the air to escape. I suggest having the emergency positioned above the water so it's LOUD when in use so you know something's wrong.
Remember, by bean animal is draining from the fuge into the DT, normally we discuss from the DT to the sump, so I want that to be clear.
OK, back to my idea. Instead of putting the whole bean animal in an overflow box like normal, I want to be able to activate a surge on this, so I want at least one pipe to reach down into the fuge so it can drain a ton of volume at once. In my case, I'm thinking I want to drain 50 gallons as a surge into my 180g tank, but I have a plan to make it flexible...wait for it. I think I'll be using a 150g stock tank as my fuge, which sits about 25" high. It's not exactly straight-walled, but let's assume I want to drain 8" of water level from the fuge as a surge.
I think I still want some surface skimming on the fuge, so I'll put my siphon pipe in a small overflow box in the fuge (construction of the box will be creative, but that's beside the point). Say I put the weir for that box 3" below the lip, so I have 22" of water. If I put all my pipes in the box, it'd be a normal bean animal...but I'm not normal.
So, the emergency is just an emergency, no need to really be in the overflow box, I'll just stick it in the open area of the fuge, about 1" below the tank wall. It is supposed to stay dry, no big deal. I might even have this pipe feed direct to the sump instead of into the DT, we'll see.
The open pipe is where this gets interesting. I'll put this out in the open fuge, possibly in some kind of perforated cage so the macro doesn't clog into it. I'll have the pipe come up so as it curves back down (with PVC fittings), the pipe comes up and is just split across the height of the overflow box's weir before it goes back down to below the water level and, importantly...this has a threaded fitting on its end. Then the airline that we put out the top I put through an Apex solenoid on its way to a normal spot above the water level. Now I can thread on a downpipe to the 'open' pipe.
Here's the idea, I normally have the solenoid open (I wonder if Apex has an 'opposite' solenoid that is only closed when its powered...) so there is a vent for this open pipe to operate normally. when I close this airline, the water can't drain 'open' through the pipe anymore because the downpipe is several inches under water, so the water level starts rising until it actually raises above the pipe's highpoint. once that pipe's curve is fully submerged, it should shift to a full siphon...loudly, but oh well. Now it should hold siphon until either the airline solenoid opens (it won't) or the water level drops below the downpipe so it sucks air.
so, if I program the apex right (disclaimer: I've never owned nor programmed an apex, so I'm guessing, but I am a literal software engineer for a living), I can flip a virtual switch at will to close the airline solenoid and activate 'surge mode', and it will fill/drain in a surge mode until I flip the switch off. Of course, I could set a timer for this so it surges for X minutes every hour, or it surges between the time of 2pm and 6pm, or...whatever.
Here's the first question: will the siphon actually activate like I want? The idea is that this open pipe has to valve, so it should dump the water in a hurry, maybe a minute or two for 50g through a 1" pipe, but really depends on the head height (head drop?). I could always size up this pipe if I wanted to speed it up, which would also quiet down the pipe in open mode, so perhaps I should do a 2" pipe so it is extra quiet when in 'open' mode and extra fast when in 'surge' mode. Of course, I could also figure out the approximate timing for the surge cycle and turn it on for slightly longer than that long each hour, so it would do a single surge per hour...or something. Here's the point: if the idea is valid, I can program my apex to close this solenoid any way I feel like it to get a surge effect whenever I want.
I plan to grow something (maybe feather caulerpa?) that can tolerate a drop in water level, it'll just squash when the water level drops. I could even kill the lights during the surge, but I doubt that's important.
Bonus: I'm thinking the surge will carry some extra 'pods into the DT for my fish to eat.
Note: the ATO will go wacky during the surge, but mostly under the basic idea, it just barely underfills the sump while the fuge gets above the open pipe, and massively overfills the sump as the fuge drains into the DT, which drains into the sump.
2nd note: you've got to make sure the DT's weir and its drain setup can handle the surge. I'm mostly planning that the DT's open pipe will bump into siphon mode when the fuge is draining the surge...again...loud.
What are these pieces again?
big idea: open pipe is outside the overflow box with its downpipe going down really far (several inches, but you can size it to match the surge you want. Add a solenoid on the airline we usually have on the open pipe so the apex can close the solenoid and activate surge mode.
Is there more?
You don't know me very well yet...of course there is.
1) you could even have different downpipes of different lengths to create different volume surges by just threading them onto the end of the open pipe's threads).
2) if the return pump is DC powered, you can turn it up during surge mode (using the Apex) so the surge tank fills faster. you could also run an extra pump to the fuge (from sump) to fill it faster. But this comes with a caveat: your ATO will go haywire with the extra water pumping up the fuge, in fact, the return section of the sump might not have enough water to push the extra water up to the fuge. You may need the extra return to be in a different section, which introduces lots of complications.
So what's the idea?
1) Am I crazy, does something like this work?
2) what size should by pipes be and my weir be? how do I calculate that? I'm thinking I'd like to be able to dump 50g into my 6x2x2 180g, probably with a slim internal and large external overflow maybe a 4' toothed overflow? how tall/wide do the teeth need to be? Maybe I need to size the open pipe from DT to sump at 2" so it can pull everything the fuge is dumping? I think I'll do a big (3") emergency from the DT to sump to make sure nothing can clog it. Also, note the normal 900gph return will be going through the DT from the sump plus the surge, so it may dump 50gpm in addition to that 900gph.
Now...tear apart my idea while I draw it up in sketchup so it makes more sense
So: I'm planning to have a big giant fuge above the DT, so it will gravity feed into the DT and be fed from a Tee off the return's line. I think this means I need to put a gate valve on the DT's return line so a small amount is pushed up into the fuge, but I'll have a ball valve on the line to the fuge too so it can be turned off.
Why do you have this crazy idea, Keith?
I love the idea of doing a real surge, I've liked the idea for years. It's cool for imagining things are in a tidal zone, it's cool for replicating big waves/storm mode, etc. but it is LOUD because the siphon is constantly opening and closing, also you get lots of air in the tank when that siphon is changing state. So I want to be able to have a normal 'show' tank when I want it quiet and no air bubbles, but I also just love the idea of doing this. Also, running a surge all the time makes an ATO not work because the water level is supposed to change all the time. so by having the surge only on sometimes, you can only run the ATO when not running surge mode.
OK, what's the idea?
I'll add pictures ASAP, maybe tonight...but here's the idea:
Have a bean animal in the fuge, but only the siphon will be the fuge. For those who already know a bean animal, skip the rest of the paragraph. A bean animal overflow normally has three pipes in an overflow box. one (the 'siphon') has a valve to slow it to be a full siphon, just less than the amount the return pump is pushing into the tank. One (the 'open') looks similar, but it has a little airline poked out its top and the airline runs back down until just above the desired water line. In normal use, this airline's end is dry so it never draws a siphon, but if something goes haywire, it will turn into a full siphon as the tank water level rises. The final tube is the 'emergency' and just ends somewhere above the desired water level, the idea is if something really goes wrong with the others, this one should normally be dry, so it should be an easy backup. The idea is only the first two ever are wet, and the second tube has no valve so when it needs to go siphon (because the airline's end is submerged), it does so without restriction. The big idea is that by going full siphon on one, and leaving just a trickle down the 'open', everything is dead silent. BTW, best plan is to put the other end of the siphon pipe under the sump water level since it has no air to bubble and let the 'open' fall just above the water line, or some do a tee so it has a straight fall to below the water and an escape above water level for the air to escape. I suggest having the emergency positioned above the water so it's LOUD when in use so you know something's wrong.
Remember, by bean animal is draining from the fuge into the DT, normally we discuss from the DT to the sump, so I want that to be clear.
OK, back to my idea. Instead of putting the whole bean animal in an overflow box like normal, I want to be able to activate a surge on this, so I want at least one pipe to reach down into the fuge so it can drain a ton of volume at once. In my case, I'm thinking I want to drain 50 gallons as a surge into my 180g tank, but I have a plan to make it flexible...wait for it. I think I'll be using a 150g stock tank as my fuge, which sits about 25" high. It's not exactly straight-walled, but let's assume I want to drain 8" of water level from the fuge as a surge.
I think I still want some surface skimming on the fuge, so I'll put my siphon pipe in a small overflow box in the fuge (construction of the box will be creative, but that's beside the point). Say I put the weir for that box 3" below the lip, so I have 22" of water. If I put all my pipes in the box, it'd be a normal bean animal...but I'm not normal.
So, the emergency is just an emergency, no need to really be in the overflow box, I'll just stick it in the open area of the fuge, about 1" below the tank wall. It is supposed to stay dry, no big deal. I might even have this pipe feed direct to the sump instead of into the DT, we'll see.
The open pipe is where this gets interesting. I'll put this out in the open fuge, possibly in some kind of perforated cage so the macro doesn't clog into it. I'll have the pipe come up so as it curves back down (with PVC fittings), the pipe comes up and is just split across the height of the overflow box's weir before it goes back down to below the water level and, importantly...this has a threaded fitting on its end. Then the airline that we put out the top I put through an Apex solenoid on its way to a normal spot above the water level. Now I can thread on a downpipe to the 'open' pipe.
Here's the idea, I normally have the solenoid open (I wonder if Apex has an 'opposite' solenoid that is only closed when its powered...) so there is a vent for this open pipe to operate normally. when I close this airline, the water can't drain 'open' through the pipe anymore because the downpipe is several inches under water, so the water level starts rising until it actually raises above the pipe's highpoint. once that pipe's curve is fully submerged, it should shift to a full siphon...loudly, but oh well. Now it should hold siphon until either the airline solenoid opens (it won't) or the water level drops below the downpipe so it sucks air.
so, if I program the apex right (disclaimer: I've never owned nor programmed an apex, so I'm guessing, but I am a literal software engineer for a living), I can flip a virtual switch at will to close the airline solenoid and activate 'surge mode', and it will fill/drain in a surge mode until I flip the switch off. Of course, I could set a timer for this so it surges for X minutes every hour, or it surges between the time of 2pm and 6pm, or...whatever.
Here's the first question: will the siphon actually activate like I want? The idea is that this open pipe has to valve, so it should dump the water in a hurry, maybe a minute or two for 50g through a 1" pipe, but really depends on the head height (head drop?). I could always size up this pipe if I wanted to speed it up, which would also quiet down the pipe in open mode, so perhaps I should do a 2" pipe so it is extra quiet when in 'open' mode and extra fast when in 'surge' mode. Of course, I could also figure out the approximate timing for the surge cycle and turn it on for slightly longer than that long each hour, so it would do a single surge per hour...or something. Here's the point: if the idea is valid, I can program my apex to close this solenoid any way I feel like it to get a surge effect whenever I want.
I plan to grow something (maybe feather caulerpa?) that can tolerate a drop in water level, it'll just squash when the water level drops. I could even kill the lights during the surge, but I doubt that's important.
Bonus: I'm thinking the surge will carry some extra 'pods into the DT for my fish to eat.
Note: the ATO will go wacky during the surge, but mostly under the basic idea, it just barely underfills the sump while the fuge gets above the open pipe, and massively overfills the sump as the fuge drains into the DT, which drains into the sump.
2nd note: you've got to make sure the DT's weir and its drain setup can handle the surge. I'm mostly planning that the DT's open pipe will bump into siphon mode when the fuge is draining the surge...again...loud.
What are these pieces again?
big idea: open pipe is outside the overflow box with its downpipe going down really far (several inches, but you can size it to match the surge you want. Add a solenoid on the airline we usually have on the open pipe so the apex can close the solenoid and activate surge mode.
Is there more?
You don't know me very well yet...of course there is.
1) you could even have different downpipes of different lengths to create different volume surges by just threading them onto the end of the open pipe's threads).
2) if the return pump is DC powered, you can turn it up during surge mode (using the Apex) so the surge tank fills faster. you could also run an extra pump to the fuge (from sump) to fill it faster. But this comes with a caveat: your ATO will go haywire with the extra water pumping up the fuge, in fact, the return section of the sump might not have enough water to push the extra water up to the fuge. You may need the extra return to be in a different section, which introduces lots of complications.
So what's the idea?
- Use a 2" pipe for the fuge's open drain so about an inch of its width is above the normal water line before it curves back down to a long downpipe.
- Put a solenoid on the fuge open drain's vent so I can close it with the apex (and turn off the ATO), thus activating surge mode
- the emergency of the fuge's bean animal stays dry all the time.
- The siphon actually keeps siphoning until the overflow box goes dry (when the surge starts draining, the fuge will stop overflowing into the box, so the siphon will break on the normal siphon pipe, and it may or may not re-siphon before the surge siphon starts. I suppose if you had a way to close the siphon pipe's flow (a 1" solenoid?), you could just turn it off while in surge mode...it would probably be quieter.
- Make sure the sump has enough room in the return section that it can actually fill the fuge
1) Am I crazy, does something like this work?
2) what size should by pipes be and my weir be? how do I calculate that? I'm thinking I'd like to be able to dump 50g into my 6x2x2 180g, probably with a slim internal and large external overflow maybe a 4' toothed overflow? how tall/wide do the teeth need to be? Maybe I need to size the open pipe from DT to sump at 2" so it can pull everything the fuge is dumping? I think I'll do a big (3") emergency from the DT to sump to make sure nothing can clog it. Also, note the normal 900gph return will be going through the DT from the sump plus the surge, so it may dump 50gpm in addition to that 900gph.
Now...tear apart my idea while I draw it up in sketchup so it makes more sense
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