Entire family hospitalized due to palytoxin

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Darth.Daddy12

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Darth.Daddy12

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This article you linked does not back up your claims at all. It clearly states that P. Toxica is common and widespread in the aquarium trade as colonies and hitchhikers on other corals. Advising new reefers to not be diligent in handling these palys is irresponsible. Of course it's a threat and should be treated as such.
You clearly didn’t understand or read it with comprehension..
 
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mattzang

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There is already 1000’s of them lol..
link?

idk what your overall point here is, most zoas aren't harmful? ok, but all most people are saying is handle them with caution.

and are you even reading these links you're providing?

Between the two stores, eight additional specimens were acquired. Of these, three were found to be highly toxic (Table 3).
Aquarists love zoanthids for many good reasons, but it is important to remember to exercise caution when handling these animals. Species of zoanthids from the genus Palythoa (which currently include P. caribbea, P. grandis , P. mammillosa, P. nigricans, and P. texaensis) contain a toxin called Palytoxin, which can be very dangerous to humans. For this reason, it is essential to wear gloves when handling zoanthids from the family zoanthidae including species from the popular Zoanthus, Palythoa and Protopalythoa genera.
am i confusing what you're arguing with someone else?
 
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musicsmaker

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wasn't actual palytoxin. If it were, they would probably be dead. Some other toxic substance most likely.
 

Brew12

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Short version.. the bright colorful corals we buy are not toxic.. the ones that are not bright and have white specs on the polyps are.. and they are very rare to come across..
I think you should both read this article again and read some scientific studies.

First, your reference disputes your claim that they are rare to come across.
"The toxicity of Palythoa was first discovered when a curious researcher began looking into ancient lore concerning the “deadly seaweed of Hana”, a poison said to be lethal when applied to a spear tip. This species was described as Palythoa toxica, and it is similar to (if not the same as) the commonly seen Palythoa heliodiscus of the Indo-Pacific. This is the coral we don’t want in our aquaria, and it is, unfortunately, widely available in the aquarium trade as large colonies, as frags and as an occasional hitchhiker alongside more desirable species."

We also now know that palytoxins aren't actually produced by the coral. It is produced by a dinoflagellate that is bioaccumulated by different organisms.


Marine Toxin Attack
Stephen P. Wood, ... Wende R. Reenstra, in Ciottone's Disaster Medicine (Second Edition), 2016
Palytoxin
Palytoxin is one of most potent marine toxins known. It was isolated first from corals located in the South Pacific.1,21,22 Originally it was thought that the toxin was made by the corals; now, however, it is known that the toxin is made by a dinoflagellate and that the corals concentrate the toxin.8,21 It is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than 5 μg.21,22 Palytoxins are stable in seawater and alcohols.


And, not only is it not isolated to a single species of coral, it can be found in a wide variety of organisms.
Cardiovascular Toxicity from Marine Envenomation
Benjamin Seymour, ... Jamie Seymour, in Heart and Toxins, 2015
Palytoxins
Palytoxin and its analogs are considered to be among the most potent marine toxins, with the potential to cause rapid cardiac failure and death occurring within minutes of intoxication. The toxin was first isolated from the zoanthid Palythoa toxica and has since been found in various members of the Palythoa spp., two of the Zoanthus spp., a number of dinoflagellates originating from the Ostreopsis genus, the sea anemone Radianthus macrodactylus, the polychaete worm Hermodice carunculata, and several species of crab and fish wherein bioaccumulation presumably occurs.
 

Cherie cook

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wasn't actual palytoxin. If it were, they would probably be dead. Some other toxic substance most likely.
I think we were just lucky because the amount of tissue I was dealing with was small, we almost immediately realized what was causing it and we removed ourselves from the vicinity. We cleaned all the nearby horizontal surfaces with bleach on the advice of the poison control center.
 

Cherie cook

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I think we were just lucky because the amount of tissue I was dealing with was small, we almost immediately realized what was causing it and we removed ourselves from the vicinity. We cleaned all the nearby horizontal surfaces with bleach on the advice of the poison control center.
The next day, lol! That evening we were done for!
 

Darth.Daddy12

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I think you should both read this article again and read some scientific studies.

First, your reference disputes your claim that they are rare to come across.
"The toxicity of Palythoa was first discovered when a curious researcher began looking into ancient lore concerning the “deadly seaweed of Hana”, a poison said to be lethal when applied to a spear tip. This species was described as Palythoa toxica, and it is similar to (if not the same as) the commonly seen Palythoa heliodiscus of the Indo-Pacific. This is the coral we don’t want in our aquaria, and it is, unfortunately, widely available in the aquarium trade as large colonies, as frags and as an occasional hitchhiker alongside more desirable species."

We also now know that palytoxins aren't actually produced by the coral. It is produced by a dinoflagellate that is bioaccumulated by different organisms.


Marine Toxin Attack
Stephen P. Wood, ... Wende R. Reenstra, in Ciottone's Disaster Medicine (Second Edition), 2016
Palytoxin
Palytoxin is one of most potent marine toxins known. It was isolated first from corals located in the South Pacific.1,21,22 Originally it was thought that the toxin was made by the corals; now, however, it is known that the toxin is made by a dinoflagellate and that the corals concentrate the toxin.8,21 It is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than 5 μg.21,22 Palytoxins are stable in seawater and alcohols.


And, not only is it not isolated to a single species of coral, it can be found in a wide variety of organisms.
Cardiovascular Toxicity from Marine Envenomation
Benjamin Seymour, ... Jamie Seymour, in Heart and Toxins, 2015
Palytoxins
Palytoxin and its analogs are considered to be among the most potent marine toxins, with the potential to cause rapid cardiac failure and death occurring within minutes of intoxication. The toxin was first isolated from the zoanthid Palythoa toxica and has since been found in various members of the Palythoa spp., two of the Zoanthus spp., a number of dinoflagellates originating from the Ostreopsis genus, the sea anemone Radianthus macrodactylus, the polychaete worm Hermodice carunculata, and several species of crab and fish wherein bioaccumulation presumably occurs.
The issue here and what need closer attention is what few species are actually capable of this and the studies referenced are speaking more about the toxin then the source.

I didn’t contradict myself. I never said it doesn’t exist just that it’s not common in the hobby and why. It’s needs to be ingested or open wound or cut cause it only has effect when in the blood so some magical gas off isn’t realistic.
 
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Cherie cook

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The issue here and what need closer attention is what few species are actually capable of this and the studies referenced are speaking more about the toxin then the source.

I didn’t contradict myself. I never said it doesn’t exist just that it’s not common in the hobby and why. It’s needs to be ingested or open wound or cut cause it only has effect when in the blood so some magical gas off isn’t realistic.
8202A3C9-B2E6-40CD-95FD-73BBA2887432.png
 

Darth.Daddy12

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I’ve done extensive research into this and there is one common theme.. all to most commonly sold corals don’t have the ability. It doesn’t convert a gas and toxifu your air in your home and loosen your entire family.

Again the story is made up over hyped crap. I don’t handle any coral wo gloves.. mostly cause I always have abrasions on my hands from work. It’s one extra step I take even though the likely hood isn’t there cause the few species that are toxic are not commonly sold nor would I buy. You would have to go out of your way and be almost completely careless to run into this issue. If this wasn’t the case then we wouldn’t be hearing bout 1 story every once in a while. This is the most popular kept coral period. It’s in almost every tank world wide. There would be a much larger issue and the coral would be deemed unsafe and no longer sold.

This hasn’t happened.
 

Brew12

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The issue here and what need closer attention is what few species are actually capable of this and the studies referenced are speaking more about the toxin then the source.
I think what you are missing is that a large number of species are capable of concentrating the toxin and it has been found in colorful zoas. The concentration of the toxin has much more to do with where the coral was harvested from than the particular species of said coral.

If you get zoas that were wild harvested from the ocean it is much more likely to have the toxin than if you have any species of paly that has spent years in propagation systems.

There are quite a few other modern studies on it you can dig into if interested other than the 2 I referenced. Much of what was known by the hobby, which seems to be where your information came from, has been proven to be wrong over the last few years.
 

redfishbluefish

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Now I'm wondering what caused the welts on my hands that came in contact with Palys while trying to catch a fish. Must have been some mysterious poison that caused me to spent the next day in bed. Wonder what it was?
 

W1ngz

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..... It's needs to be ingested or open wound or cut cause it only has effect when in the blood so some magical gas off isn’t realistic.
All manner of toxins can enter the bloodstream by inhalation.
If you spray a liquid into the air, it becomes an aerosol. The aerosol is in the air you inhale.
If you heat a liquid, it becomes a gas. This mixes with the air in the room, which you inhale.

I'm not sure what kind of science denial is going on this this thread, but I'm pretty sure that's not magic. And just because something is rare, doesn't make it any less dangerous. Palytoxin is among the most toxic marine substances known.
 

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