BoomCorals
2500 Club Member
Where can I read about the Sanjay/Mike phenomenon?
Experienced Acropora SPS Keepers 1+ Year Help Needed
- Thread starter Zagreus
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Zagreus
Active Member
@Mike Paletta and @sanjay have some interesting anecdotal evidence about starting tanks with exclusively dry rock, and having corals fade and die over the course of a few weeks, even though all water params look fine: https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/
20 years of SPS and 15 of acropora-only tanks here. Your tank is young. Looks like you need a healthy dose of patience and letting nature work. I would stop dosing and using GFO, let the bacteria grow in your rocks and sand, coralline grow and cover everything. Algae, dinos, cyano etc. are all rites of passage and you should be happy when the come and even happier when they go - this is your tank maturing... acne of puberty. Everything that you do to intervene will be paid back with multiples of time, this includes intervening with your N and P.
FWIW - I would never start a tank with dry or dead rock... I have seen how much easier it is with established rock and sand. If you upped your criterion to people who had three-year old tanks with dry/dead rock, you would get much of the same answers, but a lot of people who love their dry/dead rock are not yet to a year and do not have any breath of depth of experience with the real thing... everything is doing "great" to them, but they don't know great from what is going to come. In an established tank, a 3/4" frag of acropora can grow to baseball/grapefruit size in a year and dinner plate size in two years with complete ease (check out Ed, Copps, JB, etc) but new tank folks see their frags and they are growing and have some color, but nothing like they are going to. Potatohead above in post #38 is another example. This dry/dead rock will need patience too. If it is all bound up with terrestrial phosphate, then you might need to intervene, but see where you come out after a few weeks of stopping the GFO.
FWIW - I would never start a tank with dry or dead rock... I have seen how much easier it is with established rock and sand. If you upped your criterion to people who had three-year old tanks with dry/dead rock, you would get much of the same answers, but a lot of people who love their dry/dead rock are not yet to a year and do not have any breath of depth of experience with the real thing... everything is doing "great" to them, but they don't know great from what is going to come. In an established tank, a 3/4" frag of acropora can grow to baseball/grapefruit size in a year and dinner plate size in two years with complete ease (check out Ed, Copps, JB, etc) but new tank folks see their frags and they are growing and have some color, but nothing like they are going to. Potatohead above in post #38 is another example. This dry/dead rock will need patience too. If it is all bound up with terrestrial phosphate, then you might need to intervene, but see where you come out after a few weeks of stopping the GFO.
TechnicalFisher
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@jda, interesting post, thanks. Are you suggesting that it's better to let N and P sort themselves out rather than dosing? I've got a 9-month old setup that I started with Reef Saver rock and have been dealing with all of the issues noted here, as well as an outbreak of chrysophytes becuase my nutrients were bottomed out. Been dosing N and P with some success (improved coral color, chrysophytes disappearing) but am debating how long the nutrient dosing can/should continue. So, interested in your take on it.
I believe that all tanks will eventually get a good population of oxic and anoxic bacteria to handle N to equilibrium with your tank - always enough, but never too much. Also, the clean water, microfauna and bacteria in the rocks will eventually clean the structure so that it most of the phosphate and gunk is removed. Tanks do these things, or they eventually fail. If you dose organic carbon, GFO or add too much other food (N and P), then how can equilibrium be established? Sure your corals might look better today, but your intervention did not allow the tank to mature on it's own and find it's own path - what you actually did was not only delay this but also possibly added even more time. You won the battle to lose the war, so to speak. I would stop dosing, let everything be and see what happens. Your tank should pick up where it needs to be in the cycle. It might struggle at first, but this is (and was) needed.
Dry rock tanks are hard since they usually add unnatural terrestrial phosphate to the mix (or bound/caked organics if once-live and now dried) and the rock is not capable of housing anoxic bacteria (yet). If the P continues to go up uncontrollably, then you might need to intervene a bit (not much, but some). ...but if the phosphate is under .25, or so, not climbing and maybe even going down, then this is good. If you decide to go this route, keep an eye on this and post and we can see where it goes.
I know that intervening and using all of these "products" are the rage right now for a lot of folks. Lots of people think that they can be the outlier to game the "system" of nature. However, I might suggest that you notice where in the hobby the people who are giving you advice are - people with few-month-old cubes with 3/4" frags on plugs still who have watched some BRS videos, read some articles and browsed some messages boards are probably not the best place to get advice no matter how well they mean it. Folks with colonies, mature tanks are a better place, but not many of them post too much since they get sick of arguing with the aforementioned - you can find their experiences in their build threads... these are worth the read. The loudest people who post the most are not always the most reliable.
Dry rock tanks are hard since they usually add unnatural terrestrial phosphate to the mix (or bound/caked organics if once-live and now dried) and the rock is not capable of housing anoxic bacteria (yet). If the P continues to go up uncontrollably, then you might need to intervene a bit (not much, but some). ...but if the phosphate is under .25, or so, not climbing and maybe even going down, then this is good. If you decide to go this route, keep an eye on this and post and we can see where it goes.
I know that intervening and using all of these "products" are the rage right now for a lot of folks. Lots of people think that they can be the outlier to game the "system" of nature. However, I might suggest that you notice where in the hobby the people who are giving you advice are - people with few-month-old cubes with 3/4" frags on plugs still who have watched some BRS videos, read some articles and browsed some messages boards are probably not the best place to get advice no matter how well they mean it. Folks with colonies, mature tanks are a better place, but not many of them post too much since they get sick of arguing with the aforementioned - you can find their experiences in their build threads... these are worth the read. The loudest people who post the most are not always the most reliable.
^ This!
Go read up on the "tanks of the masters" thread. Notice how few of them dose a bunch of silly stuff...
You should never have to rely on products other than alk/calc and mag to ensure you're able to run a reef tank. You wouldn't even have to dose alk/calc and mag if water changes keep up with the demand.
Stabilize, stick to a water change schedule and take that dosing garbage out of your tank. Just think to yourself...if red sea went out of business would everyone's nice reef system suddenly explode? No, they wouldn't...which means you don't need that stuff.
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Zagreus
Active Member
I wish I had this advice and came across this information when I was building up my tank. I am one of these guys thats been reading and watching videos and honestly thought i was doing the right thing and not taking shortcuts.
Thank you for the feedback. I'm gonna start slowly discontinuing Nopox and GFO and testing frequently to make sure the values don't go crazy. Keep up with 10% weekly water changes And hope my tank starts seasoning and maturing appropriately. I hope I get a little lucky and not completely lose a bunch of SPS but I also don't want to take shortcuts and want my tank to mature the right way. Thank you all for the feedback, diagnosis and help and I will keep you posted and hope this thread also helps other people.
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Doesn't matter if no3/po4 get high. There's zero scientific evidence pointing towards higher n/p levels being bad for corals. This is a bunch of old wives takes in the hobby, some people blindly believe it for some unknown reason -- But everyone is in agreeance, your tank is sterile.
BoomCorals
2500 Club Member
I did a quick search and first two articles indicating too high of nutrient levels can have a negative effect on some corals.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877343513001917
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.1979.24.5.0935/pdf
Win the war, not the battle. I feel that you are on the right track. Patience is truly a virtue...
If you have the chance and people are locally selling good, quality from-the-ocean live rock, replace some of yours. It will help. Not too many people let it go, so it might be hard.
Check back in if you P gets too high.
Yes, that's the 70's test I always talk about which has been refuted, and is not taught in any marine biology courses in any college I've ever heard of.
BoomCorals
2500 Club Member
The first link had nothing to do with the 70's article...
The first article has to do with run-off from farms leeching into the ocean causing a phytoplankton and algae blooms.
It makes no mention of the other chemicals running into the water causing issue. It makes no mention of the mass death of algae causing red tides -- oxygen starved water. it makes no mention of almost anything -- it basically tests one parameter while being oblivious to ALL the other things going on in the ocean.
Did you know the chemical runoff from sugar cane farms in Aus cause massive phytoplankton blooms? Did you know that's whats causing so many crown of thorn stars to live? They used to survive at about 1:1m, due to lack of food during their younger life stages -- Now about 1000:1m (as of the last I read) survive.
Additionally, that's 70's article basically says "It makes the coral less dense, and more easily break off" -- But, that's kinda how corals live, and and propagate outside of releasing eggs and sperm.... So basically, they've confirmed it makes them more effectively grow and spread..... How is that bad? That's kinda exactly what we all *want* to happen.
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Zagreus
Active Member
This guy who wrote the articles below is pretty smart. He is pretty relevant too, IMO, but perhaps you disagree. First few paragraphs in each talk about inhibiting calcification and too much zoox slowing growth.... but this is bunk too, right? I know that you don't/can't see any of this and that I am a Jerk for bringing this up (I assume that I am a jerk on this thread just like the others?), but you would do a lot of people a lot of favors by offering this as your opinion and not as fact saying that there is zero scientific evidence of anything. It also might help people to know where you came across this opinion - your build looks like a new, non-mature tank... so did you get all of this from your own personal experience in a previous tank or by reading/watching other people - this type of information is paramount to help people make decisions.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
BoomCorals
2500 Club Member
More articles/citations documenting the negative impact of phos or nitrate on corals. (found from Randy's articles)
- Effects of lowered pH and elevated nitrate on coral calcification.
Marubini, F.; Atkinson, M. J. Biosphere 2 Center, Columbia Univ., Oracle, AZ, USA. Marine Ecology: Progress Series (1999), 188 117-121 - Nitrate increases zooxanthellae population density and reduces skeletogenesis in corals. Marubini, F.; Davies, P. S. Bellairs Research Inst., McGill University, St. James, Barbados. Marine Biology (Berlin) (1996), 127(2), 319-328.
Honestly, that's what I feel about telling people to keep low levels of n/p. This argument won't go anywhere. We will not agree. I think it's foolish to try and replicate NSW/ULNS as we don't have an ocean in our tank. We don't have unending amounts of phytoplankton feeding our corals. We don't have the natural chemical reactions happening from virus, enzyme, and other catabolic reactions happening within the open ocean.
The ocean =/= a reef tank.
All I keep trying to tell people is if you really wanna look at the big picture, start by realizing that our tanks are not the ocean. Two totally different environments. Also, algae isn't only from N/P. Look up people who dose phosphates, lots of them have given their anecdotal experience stating that dosing p04 actually has the opposing affect you'd expect on the Algae --
There's more factors going on with algae than just nutrients.
So to finish this up, first I'll quote Randy
And of course, to quote you @BoomCorals in the same exact thread... here's you, talking about how things happening in the ocean have no bearing on things going on in our tanks...
So @BoomCorals -- What exactly are you talking about here? Are you disagreeing with yourself from two days ago, or are you saying two days ago you didn't know what you were talking about?
Clearly, you're picking and choosing your moment to play both sides of the argument. But please, keep spamming copy/pasta about research articles you haven't read. That's definitely how you increase understanding and knowledge.
And of course, to quote you @BoomCorals in the same exact thread... here's you, talking about how things happening in the ocean have no bearing on things going on in our tanks...
This. Also I think Dana Riddle said "the ocean is not a reef tank, and a reef tank is not the ocean." There's a reason we generally don't try to imitate NSW. Randy points out one of them.
So @BoomCorals -- What exactly are you talking about here? Are you disagreeing with yourself from two days ago, or are you saying two days ago you didn't know what you were talking about?
Clearly, you're picking and choosing your moment to play both sides of the argument. But please, keep spamming copy/pasta about research articles you haven't read. That's definitely how you increase understanding and knowledge.
BoomCorals
2500 Club Member
After that strawman, and even some reductio ad absurdum... I'm done here.
After that strawman, and even some reductio ad absurdum... I'm done here.
Well, that's what happens when you conflict your own arguments. Have a good one buddy.
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