First fish issue

[MnFish1]

Fish also die from medication overdoses or poor water quality in treatment. There are huge risks in medicating fish that are typically ignored. These risks are particularly high for new reefers as it can be complicated to get and keep medication at the necessary levels while maintaining high water quality.
You can’t focus on the challenges of one method while ignoring the very high risks and significant challenges of the other.

Humblefish stated experienced reefers fare better with ich management than newbies. Do you honestly think this same statement doesn’t apply to treatment? Honestly?

Well - if you really want my opinion - here it is:

1. It is (in some countries) extremely difficult to get any medications. which makes answering a disease question difficult in the first place.
2. If you look at research on Cryptocaryon - there are also huge risks to leaving it unchecked - especially in non- exposed fish (lets pretend a tank-raised angel, or clown, or tang)
3. People tend to mis-dose - if they have a 5 gallon aquarium - and add xxxxxxxx they assume they should dose for 5 gallons - when in fact it might be 4 gallons (thats a big percent difference)
4. People sometimes ignore - or misinterpret water quality in QT tanks (you're correct)

Unfortunately - most of the evidence is anecdotal. I have decided to fall on the side of what a public aquarium - or zoo does. I..e a biosecurity program. Is that an absolute? No. None of the potential solutions are absolute solutions. I.e. - not every fish will survive with method A vs methods B and C.

But as a matter of fact - I can focus on QT protocols - they are protocols. I.e. follow step 1, step 2, step 3. etc. If a reefer does not follow those steps (including water quality) - thats not a problem with the method.

Lastly - If you look at tanks from @Lasse, @atoll, @PaulB, etc - many of them have been reefing for decades. They know about stocking density - how to recognize when a fish is in trouble (deadly trouble) - as compared to a couple Cryptocaryon spots. They may have another disease modification system (UV/Oxydator/Diatom filter, etc). This particular poster has a 15 gallon tank with a problem. The goal was and is not to debate ich management - but rather help as quickly as possible - the OP to prevent fish loss.

 

[Rtaylor]

Well - if you really want my opinion - here it is:

1. It is (in some countries) extremely difficult to get any medications. which makes answering a disease question difficult in the first place.
2. If you look at research on Cryptocaryon - there are also huge risks to leaving it unchecked - especially in non- exposed fish (lets pretend a tank-raised angel, or clown, or tang)
3. People tend to mis-dose - if they have a 5 gallon aquarium - and add xxxxxxxx they assume they should dose for 5 gallons - when in fact it might be 4 gallons (thats a big percent difference)
4. People sometimes ignore - or misinterpret water quality in QT tanks (you're correct)

Unfortunately - most of the evidence is anecdotal. I have decided to fall on the side of what a public aquarium - or zoo does. I..e a biosecurity program. Is that an absolute? No. None of the potential solutions are absolute solutions. I.e. - not every fish will survive with method A vs methods B and C.

But as a matter of fact - I can focus on QT protocols - they are protocols. I.e. follow step 1, step 2, step 3. etc. If a reefer does not follow those steps (including water quality) - thats not a problem with the method.

Lastly - If you look at tanks from @Lasse, @atoll, @PaulB, etc - many of them have been reefing for decades. They know about stocking density - how to recognize when a fish is in trouble (deadly trouble) - as compared to a couple Cryptocaryon spots. They may have another disease modification system (UV/Oxydator/Diatom filter, etc). This particular poster has a 15 gallon tank with a problem. The goal was and is not to debate ich management - but rather help as quickly as possible - the OP to prevent fish loss.

Public aquariums and zoos have at least some highly trained, highly educated, often doctorate educated individuals to oversee treatment and often involve veterinarians….. so if advanced level expertise is what you are trying to avoid………

 

[MnFish1]

Public aquariums and zoos have at least some highly trained, highly educated, often doctorate educated individuals to oversee treatment and often involve veterinarians….. so if advanced level expertise is what you are trying to avoid………

I think we're saying the same thing. Have no real disagreement with you. In this case - my opinion was you gave incorrect advice for this situation. It's not appropriate for either of us to turn this into a debate about Ich management - which is a chronic issue - as compared to the OP's original post. He or she may decide to do ich management - going forward - I have no problem with that. Have a good day

 

[Rtaylor]

I think we're saying the same thing. Have no real disagreement with you. In this case - my opinion was you gave incorrect advice for this situation. It's not appropriate for either of us to turn this into a debate about Ich management - which is a chronic issue - as compared to the OP's original post. He or she may decide to do ich management - going forward - I have no problem with that. Have a good day

My only issue is your statement that it’s inappropriate to offer advice that disagrees with yours. As a ‘fish medic’ I would expect better behavior. Disagree with it all you like, totally cool with that. To claim my response was inappropriate is inaccurate and close-minded. Every reason you gave for that comment did not hold up to scrutiny. Have a good day.

 

[MnFish1]

My only issue is your statement that it’s inappropriate to offer advice that disagrees with yours. As a ‘fish medic’ I would expect better behavior. Disagree with it all you like, totally cool with that. To claim my response was inappropriate is inaccurate and close-minded. Have a good day.

OK - just so it's clear - you offered no advice. You posted a link - with no recommendation. IMHO - the link is meaningless without the context behind it. BTW - that goes for the stickies here, and every other post. Telling someone who is stressed out - with a fish issue - to go read a thread /article - with no context can be problematic. Again - it wasn't personal against you. It was a general comment

 

[vetteguy53081]

Excuse my ignorance. Does this include invertebrates

Fish only - all others remain but maintain water quality in the tank also

 

[Rtaylor]

OK - just so it's clear - you offered no advice. You posted a link - with no recommendation. IMHO - the link is meaningless without the context behind it. BTW - that goes for the stickies here, and every other post. Telling someone who is stressed out - with a fish issue - to go read a thread /article - with no context can be problematic. Again - it wasn't personal against you. It was a general comment

1. You thanked me for the first link, so apparently that was acceptable
2. Second link has different standards as they were posted together
3. I think you under estimate peoples ability to read and ask follow up questions. The purpose of stickies is so you don’t have to repeatedly provide the same information
4. The info I provided is also in a sticky on this forum. You have yet to acknowledge your error in that respect. When you thought it wasn’t, it was very important criteria. Now that you know you were wrong, apparently it’s not important.
5. You repeatedly claimed ich management is an advanced method and referenced a statement that would apply to pretty much everything, including quarantine and treatment (that experienced reefers fare better than newbies) Then suggests to use the methods used by professional marine biologists and veterinarians…….
6. Says I gave no advice, yet “in your honest opinion “, I gave wrong advice. How does that work?
7. Repeatedly stated that the situation is acute with all evidence pointing to the contrary.


I get no one likes to admit they were mistaken, but seriously? Keep digging. You inappropriately told me not to post potentially useful information. That is the problem.

 

[MnFish1]

1. You thanked me for the first link, so apparently that was acceptable
2. Second link has different standards as they were posted together
3. I think you under estimate peoples ability to read and ask follow up questions. The purpose of stickies is so you don’t have to repeatedly provide the same information
4. The info I provided is also in a sticky on this forum. You have yet to acknowledge your error in that respect. When you thought it wasn’t, it was very important criteria. Now that you know you were wrong, apparently it’s not important.
5. You repeatedly claimed ich management is an advanced method and referenced a statement that would apply to pretty much everything, including quarantine and treatment (that experienced reefers fare better than newbies) Then suggests to use the methods used by professional marine biologists and veterinarians…….
6. Says I gave no advice, yet “in your honest opinion “, I gave wrong advice. How does that work?
7. Repeatedly stated that the situation is acute with all evidence pointing to the contrary.


I get no one likes to admit they were mistaken, but seriously? Keep digging. You inappropriately told me not to post potentially useful information. That is the problem.

I will respond by PM - as its not part of this thread.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is my first fish issue in a small reef tank (15 gallons). And I want to make sure I address it right. From my reading it could be ich or flukes.
Do I quarantine him? FW dip? Not sure but I want to do it right.
Thank you.

Hello, Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Sorry, I missed this thread yesterday. Yes, that is most probably ich and you should follow the information outlined by @vetteguy53081

Your tank looks a bit cloudy/turbid - is that just from the camera or is it like that in person? If so, you need to try and figure out what's going on there.

Setting up a treatment tank is not going to be easy, but it is extremely unlikely that "ich management" will succeed in a newer tank like this.


Jay

 

[atoll]

Actually , although I have been in thus hobby longer than the coral reefs existed I know little about all these diseases that keep getting invented. We only had white spot and velvet to contend with 40 plus years ago or so it seemed.

Now I look on that as a good thing not bad. I can recognise both of those having never experienced any ⁹other form of disease and not even those in the last 30 years.

Well not quite as I have seen newly introduced fish break out in itch on first introduction which disappeared in a day or so with no other fish showing signs of it.

Actually I would hate to be some sort of disease expert. However, I do believe I can tell a healthy fish from one that isn't so. All begins with observation from a short distance from the LFSs tank a fish I am interested in is in.

The second is to see it feed whilst in.the LFSs never take their word for it. The above is all about identifying the health of a fish but there is no guarantee.

No nose up against the glass as I often others see do. I accept therecis more to recognising a fish with a disease other than observation but it's a very good starting point. Medications again I have little knowledge about.

Not much help to the Op but hopefully some will recognise the importance.

 

[MnFish1]

Actually , although I have been in thus hobby longer than the coral reefs existed I know little about all these diseases that keep getting invented. We only had white spot and velvet to contend with 40 plus years ago or so it seemed.

Now I look on that as a good thing not bad. I can recognise both of those having never experienced any ⁹other form of disease and not even those in the last 30 years.

Well not quite as I have seen newly introduced fish break out in itch on first introduction which disappeared in a day or so with no other fish showing signs of it.

Actually I would hate to be some sort of disease expert. However, I do believe I can tell a healthy fish from one that isn't so. All begins with observation from a short distance from the LFSs tank a fish I am interested in is in.

The second is to see it feed whilst in.the LFSs never take their word for it. The above is all about identifying the health of a fish but there is no guarantee.

No nose up against the glass as I often others see do. I accept therecis more to recognising a fish with a disease other than observation but it's a very good starting point. Medications again I have little knowledge about.

Not much help to the Op but hopefully some will recognise the importance.

Agreed. I think there is something to the point that a tank full of coral, lowly stocked, with a supply chain that SEEMS to be less of an issue than in the US - might have less problem with disease. The goal here is actually to help the OP. Ich management vs. eradication - can be debated on that thread. IMHO

 

[atoll]

Agreed. I think there is something to the point that a tank full of coral, lowly stocked, with a supply chain that SEEMS to be less of an issue than in the US - might have less problem with disease. The goal here is actually to help the OP. Ich management vs. eradication - can be debated on that thread. IMHO

Point of order if I may before I bow out and knave this thread tortoise vest answering it.
I am far from "lowly stocked" in my 5'x2'x2' I have the following fish.

I have the following.
Pair of common clowns.
4 African flameback pigmy angels.
3 females and a male.
pair of midas blennies.
Pair of firefish
Pair of Royal grammas
Pair of black leopard wrasse.
3 yellow assessors
Pair of blue dot sand sifting gobbies
7 sapphire damsels.
26 fish in total.
Agreed mainly small fish but I have lots on view at any one time and so much movement in the tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Point of order if I may before I bow out and knave this thread tortoise vest answering it.
I am far from "lowly stocked" in my 5'x2'x2' I have the following fish.

I have the following.
Pair of common clowns.
4 African flameback pigmy angels.
3 females and a male.
pair of midas blennies.
Pair of firefish
Pair of Royal grammas
Pair of black leopard wrasse.
3 yellow assessors
Pair of blue dot sand sifting gobbies
7 sapphire damsels.
26 fish in total.
Agreed mainly small fish but I have lots on view at any one time and so much movement in the tank.

It is my opinion - that it's not the 'number' of the fish - but rather the surface area of the fish thats more important. For example - (as you said) many of the fish are smaller as compare to having 7 tangs in the same tank. The more surface area the more parasite burden - faster reproduction, etc etc. Again = just my opinion