Flatworm Exit (FWE) does NOT kill Zoa Eating Nudi (ZEN)

[ZoaKiller]

I picked up a case of Zoa Eating Nudibranch from someone I'd been buying and trading from for years.*

I've treated a tank with 70 gallons of water volume (factoring in overflow, rock, and sand displacement). With an >entire< (roughly 4.3 x the recommended dose for flatworms) bottle of unexpired/sealed FWE twice in two weeks. There are absolutely still live ZEN. Including 2 I specifically put in a frag cup to make sure I could observe for death/effective treatment.

It's my fault I got them and it's now my extremely **** burden to bear. But just an FYSA if you were hoping to treat that way.

*Just just because you've been doing it for a long time doesn't mean you shouldnt use precautions.

 

[ZoaKiller]

PS despite what the manufacturer leads you to believe Coral Rx does NOT kill ZEN. Peroxide absolutely does and I'm fairly certain Bayer does as well. Coral RX does stun them but if you're dipping a large colony and you don't blow out every nook and cranny they will survive the dip.

*I can't speak to Peroxide and Bayer killing eggs. It's always suggested you go over the entire colony/rock with a soft bristle toothbrush or acid brush.

 

[chaostactics]

Well that's unfortunate

 

[mfinn]

Bummer it didn't work for you.
I've been using FWE for years and have had pretty good luck with it.
I even used it as a tank treatment and after 2 doses had complete success.

 

[mdb_talon]

I also have eliminated zoa nudies using FWE in the past using in-tank dosing(did 4 doses over 2 weeks)

 

[ZoaKiller]

@mfinn @mdb_talon so just for reference here are 2 ZEN that were exposed to 4.3x the normal dose of FWE not only has it been a bit over 60 hours since exposure.

BUT they have also been in a 2 oz frag cup with no water circulation, no food, and no water exchange (they were floating in the cup in the display).

You'll notice they are quite pale an almost translucent tan vs the distinct white/brown they were when I pulled them from my zoa.

However, they are both still crawling and have the ability to maintain footing on the inside of the frag cup with moderate direct blasting with a baster.

 

[Staghorn]

Has anyone experimented with potassium permanganate and ZEN. It works on the MEN eggs but is pretty rough on the Montis, even though there’s a decent survival rate.

 

[ZoaKiller]

Has anyone experimented with potassium permanganate and ZEN. It works on the MEN eggs but is pretty rough on the Montis, even though there’s a decent survival rate.

I got excited there for a minute thinking it was a tank wide treatment. Seems like that's a no go.

Potassium permanganate question.

Hi everyone, Been exposed to external infections in my own tank and witnessed in some others recently. I have heard of people using lower dosage of potassium permanganate in their tanks as a preventative measure for such external infections. Is this something I could practice to avoid...

www.reef2reef.com

Lord willing this plague will be over sooner than later but I suspect that, that is incorrect. I will continue with experiments involving dips and tank wide treatments.

Potassium permanganate question.

Hi everyone, Been exposed to external infections in my own tank and witnessed in some others recently. I have heard of people using lower dosage of potassium permanganate in their tanks as a preventative measure for such external infections. Is this something I could practice to avoid...

www.reef2reef.com

So far the best dip with IMMEDIATE results was 50/50 tank water and peroxide. However I didn't have any eggs available to experiment on at the time.

 

[mfinn]

@mfinn @mdb_talon so just for reference here are 2 ZEN that were exposed to 4.3x the normal dose of FWE not only has it been a bit over 60 hours since exposure.

BUT they have also been in a 2 oz frag cup with no water circulation, no food, and no water exchange (they were floating in the cup in the display).

You'll notice they are quite pale an almost translucent tan vs the distinct white/brown they were when I pulled them from my zoa.

However, they are both still crawling and have the ability to maintain footing on the inside of the frag cup with moderate direct blasting with a baster.

I don't don't know what to tell you, except I had good results using FWE on zoanthid eating nudibranchs. I used it as a dip for new frags/colonies, and then when I didn't quarantine some new additions and infected my display tank, I used it as a whole tank treatment.
When I used it as a dip on pieces that I could see the nudibranchs on, I would watch and see the nudibranchs literally dissolve in as little as 20 seconds.

I will say it has been nearly 10 years since I had a dedicated zoanthid tank and haven't been needing to dip zoanthids like I used to. Maybe something has changed with FWE, IDK.

Good luck with your struggle.

 

[Chrisv.]

@mfinn @mdb_talon so just for reference here are 2 ZEN that were exposed to 4.3x the normal dose of FWE not only has it been a bit over 60 hours since exposure.

BUT they have also been in a 2 oz frag cup with no water circulation, no food, and no water exchange (they were floating in the cup in the display).

You'll notice they are quite pale an almost translucent tan vs the distinct white/brown they were when I pulled them from my zoa.

However, they are both still crawling and have the ability to maintain footing on the inside of the frag cup with moderate direct blasting with a baster.

Those guys look a little pale. Maybe they need you to add a zoa? Jk... Sorry... I hope you nail the b@s***** and change your username to zoaeatingnudibranchkiller.

In all seriousness, I wonder if there is a strain of these that's resistant to FWE. That would not be good. Do you advise a two stage dip for intro of new specimens, e.g. coral rx followed by peroxide?

 

[ZoaKiller]

Just for Ss and Gs I tried a 3rd bottle again at 4.3 normal dose. And still they persisted. The treatment that seems to work although drastic, but most successful if you have zoas to be treated but rockwork that cannot be removed is the same treatment you use for algae breakouts.

Lots of big containers. Drain the tank down till all of your zoa are exposed to air and spray down with a healthy but reasonable dose of peroxide.

I'm 85% sure the peroxide kills eggs too but unfortunately (fortunately) I couldn't find anymore obvious eggs.

I think/pray I've killed all of them and now have a 6 line just in case. But if I ever find them again I'll try a peroxide dip right off the bat.

 

[ZoaKiller]

Those guys look a little pale. Maybe they need you to add a zoa? Jk... Sorry... I hope you nail the b@s***** and change your username to zoaeatingnudibranchkiller.

In all seriousness, I wonder if there is a strain of these that's resistant to FWE. That would not be good. Do you advise a two stage dip for intro of new specimens, e.g. coral rx followed by peroxide?

It was funny. It's almost entirely my own fault and if you can't laugh at your own mistakes, at least a bit, you're probably gonna rage quit the hobby anyway.

 

[Chrisv.]

I did my first peroxide dip last weekend. It was for a frag I got from a local club member that had a ton of bryposis on it. A Jason fox a** --insert-verb-here-- I was STUNNED by how well the peroxide dip worked to clear up the algae and the zoa just looked fantastic within an hour. It was like I relieved a burden it had been carrying. Wasn't related to nudibranchs, but...wow.

 

[VinhtageZoas]

Sorry to bring back a slightly old-ish post but wanted to give my 2cents on this. 6 years or so back, I had a nudi infestation in my zoa tank and used FWE with great success and saw, like others have said, the nudis literally dissolve after dosing. Fast forward to few weeks back I went to a LFS and saw a zoa plug with a nudi and took it home to experiment if it still worked. To my surprise, like the OP, this time it didn’t work and the nudi survived 5x the dosage. I vaguely remember the packaging on the FWE to be a different color from last time (there’s the blue/purple box and the red/maroon colored box) and it had a different effect than the last time I tried it after a big gap in time, so I’m wondering if salifert maybe switched up their recipe/formula for FWE and this is why it doesn’t work as much for ppl nowadays like it did before?

 

[mfinn]

Sorry to bring back a slightly old-ish post but wanted to give my 2cents on this. 6 years or so back, I had a nudi infestation in my zoa tank and used FWE with great success and saw, like others have said, the nudis literally dissolve after dosing. Fast forward to few weeks back I went to a LFS and saw a zoa plug with a nudi and took it home to experiment if it still worked. To my surprise, like the OP, this time it didn’t work and the nudi survived 5x the dosage. I vaguely remember the packaging on the FWE to be a different color from last time (there’s the blue/purple box and the red/maroon colored box) and it had a different effect than the last time I tried it after a big gap in time, so I’m wondering if salifert maybe switched up their recipe/formula for FWE and this is why it doesn’t work as much for ppl nowadays like it did before?

Made me go look at the color box I had on my shelf and it's the maroon/ blue box, but I also notice the expiration date of 4/2019.

 

[VinhtageZoas]

Made me go look at the color box I had on my shelf and it's the maroon/ blue box, but I also notice the expiration date of 4/2019.

the one that I used before was also a maroon box and the one I used recently with a purple/blue box. I also remember recommending FWE to a buddy the other year pre-Covid and he had success as well. Just kind of led me to think (just speculations and everything) that due to Covid, salifert maybe cut back on some ingredients in FWE so it isn’t as strong. Would explain why I had success like many others in the past but not this time around with the new ones like with a lot of others. If anything, the new ones stun the nudis for me and made it look like they died but I emptied the container it was in with the FWE and introduced untreated tank water and after 20 mins it kicked itself back upright slowly. No dissolving was observed like in the past

 

[PeterC99]

@ZoaKiller see you are from Greece. I assume the country (cause we do have some Greece Cities in the US). Wondering if the FWE formulas could be different internationally?