For those who dose Nitrates and Phosphates...a question

[hatfielj]

I've been dosing nitrates and phosphates for several weeks now in an effort to keep higher levels so as to improve coloration in my SPS. SPS are all happy and looking pretty good at the moment.

Nitrates currently around 2 (I'd like to try having them in the 5-10 range)
Phosphates 0.03

Now that I am consistently getting my levels where I want them, I'm battling glass algae. I need to clean my glass 2-3 times a day! As a result my tanks water is not very clear most of the day as I am scraping off clouds of algae multiple times.

Is this something that will diminish over time? Has anyone else had this trouble when dosing? For those of you that keep your nutrients high, is this just a fact of life for you?

I will be hooking up a UV sterilizer soon anyway, so I would expect this to help, but I'm just surprised by this because I don't feel like it's normal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's not surprising to me, and is why for years folks kept and recommended somewhat lower levels.

Eventually, the algae might become limited by something else (such as iron), but whether that is desirable or not is another question without a perfect answer (IMO).

 

[hatfielj]

It's not surprising to me, and is why for years folks kept and recommended somewhat lower levels.

Eventually, the algae might become limited by something else (such as iron), but whether that is desirable or not is another question without a perfect answer (IMO).

So, is this something that everyone with higher nutrients just lives with?

I'd love to hear from the pros who run their nutrients high all the time.. @WWC @jfox I know for a fact your nitrate levels are usually up above 5-10 and phosphates in the 0.03 range because I've tested your water that came with my frags

Do you guys have to clean your glass several times per day? Do you run UV to deal with this? Does it just go away on it's own eventually?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The need to clean depends on your standards of how clean is clean enough, but once a day is not especially unusual. I should have cleaned it every day, but didn't.

This article of mine shows the glass in an old version of my tank (2003) after certain periods of time (a few hours vs 5 days) from two angles, and how dosing silicate altered that (by growing diatoms instead of green algae). Most people would say 5 days is a mess.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/1/aafeature1

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, others probably have their own algae on glass growth photos so posting them here would be interesting to see the typical rates.

 

[hatfielj]

Interesting. Thx for the link. Right now my tank looks like your control tank's Day 5 after just one day

 

[Reef Jeff]

I dose both because my tank drops both to undetectable if I don’t. I have to clean my glass every 2-3 days. I just live with it. Keep in mind that the algae forms a stronghold on the glass that you can’t scrape off easily. It looks clean, but there is a light coating of microscopic material that remains which causes the algae to grow on the glass faster. If the glass has some scratches or micro etching it’s even worse. You can use a razor blade to scrape the coating off and extend the regrowth another day or two but it’s a lot of extra work for little gain.

The benefit of dosing NO3 and PO4 to my corals both hard and soft outweighs the paleness I get if I push one or both nutrients to undetectable. I maintain 1-2 ppm on NO3 and .05-.08 ppm PO4. Right now I am testing a lower phosphate level of .02-03 to see how it goes. Even with the Hanna ULR I can’t go below 6 or 7 ppb of P (equals .018-.021 ppm PO4) and be sure I am not at relative zero because of the test kit’s error margin which is 5-6 ppb. Algae on glass is still an issue at .02-.03 ppm PO4.

Not sure why you want to push NO3 to 5-10. Anything over 1-2 ppm is completely uneccessary and going lower has no untoward effects on color, growth or polyp extension until you get to relative zero.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Here’s 2 full days going into 3rd day. The algae grows most where the current from the returns hits the front pane.

 

[JDowns]

I use to dose nutrients to get my levels to NO3 5-10ppm / PO4 0.04-0.06. I found that just feeding Reef Roids and Oyster Feast once a day added all the additional nutrients I needed. I typically add Oyster Feast first then wait 30 minutes before feeding Reef Roids. The Oyster Feast on quite a few of my acros and softies really triggers a feeding response.

As far as the glass. I add Vibrant once a week at water change and only have to clean my glass once a week.

If I stop adding new rocks I'll eventually get rid of this dictyota algae. It last about 30 days then disappears, just ugly in the meantime.

 

[reefer1]

It took a while to realize it but my sps really took off once I started (about 2 months ago) dosing phosphate. Some of my acros have polyps that extend 3/8" or more. Even during the day. It's also helped to get more color, growth, and branching.
I target my tank nitrates at 2-5ppm. I will dose Flourish Nitrogen if my skimmer reduces my nitrates below 2ppm.
I add about 4-5ml of Flourish phosphorus every 2-3 days (when I change filter socks). My phosphates still measure undetectable but this may be meter error.
My tank glass develops a thin film algae that I clean about every 3-5 days. The film seems to cover the glass all over. I find if I don't clean the glass regularly, I start to get coraline growth. Then I need to get out a razor blade.

 

[Fourstars]

I have been experiencing the same thing, for years I used the glass bloom as an indicator of nutrients. Now that I understand better the importance of No3 PO4 to coral growth and color I except that cleaning will be more often. I adjust my skimmer to skim wet for a few hours after scraping.

 

[hatfielj]

Not sure why you want to push NO3 to 5-10. Anything over 1-2 ppm is completely uneccessary and going lower has no untoward effects on color, growth or polyp extension until you get to relative zero.

This is why I want to try higher levels
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-parameters-of-some-masters.295215/

 

[hatfielj]

So...over the last couple of days the crazy algae growth has calmed down quite a bit. It’s still there but now only requiring once daily magnet cleaning.
I’m guessing the tank is adapting to the higher nitrate/phosphate levels and the glass algae is going through some kind of succession process. Maybe some other nutrient that the algae likes has become depleted? Corals still look good so I’m not worried about it. Gonna keep dosing as is for now.

 

[Flux Capacitor]

Have you seen the MOAI device that automatically cleans your tank glass? A quick google search should bring it up. It’s only aviaible for preorder at the moment, I know it’s a little pricey, but would eliminate you having to take the time to clean it yourself.

 

[BigJohnny]

So, is this something that everyone with higher nutrients just lives with?

I'd love to hear from the pros who run their nutrients high all the time.. @WWC @jfox I know for a fact your nitrate levels are usually up above 5-10 and phosphates in the 0.03 range because I've tested your water that came with my frags

Do you guys have to clean your glass several times per day? Do you run UV to deal with this? Does it just go away on it's own eventually?

5-10ppm nitrate and .03 ppm is not what I would consider high nutrients necesarily (I'll explain), but just fyi mine are higher than that and I only clean the glass about once a week max. So although in your case you have to clean it more it's not necessarily just due to your measurable nitrate and phosphate levels. The increase in frequency certainly appears to be caused by your nitrate/phosphate dosing, but it's not the full picture is my point.

A 40g tank with 7 fish and 5ppm no3 and .03 ppm po4 likely has more docs/available nutrients to corals and algae then a 40g tank with 3 fish and the same 5ppm no3 and .03 po4. It could even be the otger way around depending on many factors. Testable nutrient levels don't give the whole picture. You can also have a ton of algae and 0 testable nitrate and phosphate. That's why I would never recommend targeting a specific testable no3/po4 number just because it works well in someone else's tank. They might have different lighting intensity/spectrum/photoperiod/flow/bioload/docs/bacterial populations/growth rates/types of coral/water chemistry.

If your corals are pale and you have a low bioload, adding additional nutrients in the form of more fish (first choice)/particulate foods/amino acids etc would be my preferred methods if you are sure it's not from too much light. You can dose nitrate and phosphate instead I suppose but I would just do it slowly and monitor your corals. Use them as a guideline, not the tests (which can be innacurate anyway).

Just my two cents, good luck

 

[hatfielj]

5-10ppm nitrate and .03 ppm is not what I would consider high nutrients necesarily (I'll explain), but just fyi mine are higher than that and I only clean the glass about once a week max. So although in your case you have to clean it more it's not necessarily just due to your measurable nitrate and phosphate levels. The increase in frequency certainly appears to be caused by your nitrate/phosphate dosing, but it's not the full picture is my point.

A 40g tank with 7 fish and 5ppm no3 and .03 ppm po4 likely has more docs/available nutrients to corals and algae then a 40g tank with 3 fish and the same 5ppm no3 and .03 po4. It could even be the otger way around depending on many factors. Testable nutrient levels don't give the whole picture. You can also have a ton of algae and 0 testable nitrate and phosphate. That's why I would never recommend targeting a specific testable no3/po4 number just because it works well in someone else's tank. They might have different lighting intensity/spectrum/photoperiod/flow/bioload/docs/bacterial populations/growth rates/types of coral/water chemistry.

If your corals are pale and you have a low bioload, adding additional nutrients in the form of more fish (first choice)/particulate foods/amino acids etc would be my preferred methods if you are sure it's not from too much light. You can dose nitrate and phosphate instead I suppose but I would just do it slowly and monitor your corals. Use them as a guideline, not the tests (which can be innacurate anyway).

Just my two cents, good luck

I totally agree with you. I dont mean to make it sound like I’m only targeting a specific set of numbers. I’m definitely using my corals as a guide. Right now I’m getting great polyp extension and good colors. But, I’m curious to see if the colors will darken if I continue to drive up the nitrates. The highest I’ve had them so far is only 2 so I’m curious to see how things will look when they are higher.
Interestingly my phosphates have gotten higher the last couple of days so I wonder if that has something to do with the change in algae I’m noticing. They were 0.08 last night and tonight they’re 0.14. So, I’m stopping dosing for now to get them back down to a safer level.

 

[BigJohnny]

I totally agree with you. I dont mean to make it sound like I’m only targeting a specific set of numbers. I’m definitely using my corals as a guide. Right now I’m getting great polyp extension and good colors. But, I’m curious to see if the colors will darken if I continue to drive up the nitrates. The highest I’ve had them so far is only 2 so I’m curious to see how things will look when they are higher.
Interestingly my phosphates have gotten higher the last couple of days so I wonder if that has something to do with the change in algae I’m noticing. They were 0.08 last night and tonight they’re 0.14. So, I’m stopping dosing for now to get them back down to a safer level.

Great, hope it works out and keep us posted. Just FYI sometimes I get an increase in film on the glass when making changes to the system, then it stabilizes. If it holds I'd dial it back as your probably dosing too much either at once or in general. When I first started dosing acropower I would dose the weekly dose 1x per week and had to clean the glass 2 days later, I then split the dose into daily additions and now i don't have to anymore. You could also try experimenting with dosing it at night vs morning.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

So...over the last couple of days the crazy algae growth has calmed down quite a bit. It’s still there but now only requiring once daily magnet cleaning.
I’m guessing the tank is adapting to the higher nitrate/phosphate levels and the glass algae is going through some kind of succession process. Maybe some other nutrient that the algae likes has become depleted? Corals still look good so I’m not worried about it. Gonna keep dosing as is for now.

I would be more inclined to believe what Randy mentioned a few posts ago, that whatever element limits growth of nuisance algae on the glass has been depleted.

This is why I want to try higher levels
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-parameters-of-some-masters.295215/

At first you said you wanted to dose nitrates and phosphates to improve coloration and health. I was on board with that. I absolutely do not agree with targeting a specific parameter range because a few reefers have had success with it. Just looking at calcium, magnesium, carbonate, nitrates and phosphates is a very incomplete picture. Even if you take into account tank livestock, algavores like tangs and cleanup crews, aragonite's ability to bind phosphates and other export methods like water changes and GFO, you're still missing all the unknowns that go into a tank's biology that make the tank work.

Way back when, everyone used the same lights, the same skimmers, and the same boat rock from Fiji. If you followed the rules of thumb (did a monthly water change, basically), then you had success. That's not so anymore. Even Mike Paletta, whose article you quoted, failed miserably with SPS in one of his new tanks, even though his parameters were all in line with what you were targeting. Only after adding established live rock to the system did his corals start to thrive instead of die.

There's a lot more that goes into tank success and coral health than nitrates and phosphates. If dosing some nitrate and phosphate has improved the health of your corals, that's just fine, and you should keep doing it. I wouldn't dose to the point where you have to scrape your glass three times a day and your water is practically always cloudy. Not solely in the name of reaching a target that other reefers think is acceptable.

 

[Fourstars]

Some of us can’t supply enough nutrients with just fish load, my tank is only a reefer 250 and only so many fish can coexist. I guess I could of just started dumping food in but seems like I would loose some control that way. After dosing now for three weeks my coral coloration has never been better! The blooms on the glass are now every other day. I guess the tank has to reset to the higher nutrient load. I’m dosing nitrates, phosphates iron and Acropower.

 

[cracker]

I also have to dose or I get the brown slime stuff. I have this very rough algae on the glass. The magnetic scrapper sounds like sand paper ! I have to use a razor scraper on it. I have since cut back on dosing to see what happens. Good luck finding a good balance .