Fumanchu Lionfish Passed Away

[sawrip]

Woke up this morning to see my Fu Manchu Lion fish had suddenly passed away. Checked my usual parameters and everything looks good, Nitrates a little high at 40ppm, it's a Fowlr tank.

He's only been fed a live diet or river shrimp and guppies with the additionol supplemantion or frozen shrimps and a small amount of Krill.

Keen to get your thoughts on this, I've pressured the shop owner I purchased him from in November last year and it turns out he was kept in a "theraptic" dose of copper, I do wonder if that's behind this @lion king?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Woke up this morning to see my Fu Manchu Lion fish had suddenly passed away. Checked my usual parameters and everything looks good, Nitrates a little high at 40ppm, it's a Fowlr tank.

He's only been fed a live diet or river shrimp and guppies with the additionol supplemantion or frozen shrimps and a small amount of Krill.

Keen to get your thoughts on this, I've pressured the shop owner I purchased him from in November last year and it turns out he was kept in a "theraptic" dose of copper, I do wonder if that's behind this @lion king?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Sorry to see. I've had issues with this species long term. Only Parapterois heterura has been more delicate for me.

Open mouth deaths often relate to a lack of proper gas exchange in marine fish. However, the causes for that is varied - low oxygen, high carbon dioxide or one of many gill diseases and conditions (including anemia).

Did you happen to look at the fish's gills when it was freshly dead? Their color can tell you if the fish had anemia or not; white with blotches means gill disease, pale pink means anemia and dark red is normal. Trouble is, the gills turn pale soon after death.

If you still have the fish, you could open it up and look at its liver - although a subjective measure, if you took a picture of it, I could tell you if it is normal or not.

I've looked into "delayed death" from chemical exposure and I cannot find any documentation on that issue for copper. Ionic copper can cause acute toxicity, and long term exposure can cause chronic toxic, but proper exposure has not been shown to cause death months/years later. Hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver) is the #1 killer of captive lionfish.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Sorry to see. I've had issues with this species long term. Only Parapterois heterura has been more delicate for me.

Open mouth deaths often relate to a lack of proper gas exchange in marine fish. However, the causes for that is varied - low oxygen, high carbon dioxide or one of many gill diseases and conditions (including anemia).

Did you happen to look at the fish's gills when it was freshly dead? Their color can tell you if the fish had anemia or not; white with blotches means gill disease, pale pink means anemia and dark red is normal. Trouble is, the gills turn pale soon after death.

If you still have the fish, you could open it up and look at its liver - although a subjective measure, if you took a picture of it, I could tell you if it is normal or not.

I've looked into "delayed death" from chemical exposure and I cannot find any documentation on that issue for copper. Ionic copper can cause acute toxicity, and long term exposure can cause chronic toxic, but proper exposure has not been shown to cause death months/years later. Hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver) is the #1 killer of captive lionfish.

Jay

Thank you for such a detailed reply, I was a little devestated in truth as I monitor my tank daily and can't seem to think of anything I've done wrong that would cause this. I do wonder if hyposalinity has caused it but then again that should increase dissolved oxygen in the water? The gills look blood red when I fished him out the tank this morning.

He was an absolute ravenous eater, I am fully aware that you have to avoid overfeeding due to fatty liver but tricky when he hoovers up the shrimps meant for others.

Will try my best to open him up and pop a photo across shortly

 

[lion king]

Fu manchu's seem to be extremely difficult, even when everything seems to be going right. I have found that 100% of every fu manchu I have ever known that came from a source running copper in their systems never lived more than a few months. I have kept fu manchu's for over 8 years. There can be many unknown reasons and with scorps that happens. Several things could have occurred to cause a problem pre-existing condition resulting in an unexpected death. Any nutritional issues or fatty liver takes much longer.

 

[lion king]

In regards to the hypo, while an osmotic episode could surely be detrimental, these usually occurs very quickly, within a couple of days after bringing back up to normal sg. The risk I find with hypo is actually during hypo, mostly to do with ow ph and water quality. These conditions are ripe to trigger secondary issues.

 

[lion king]

In reference to overfeeding, this usually occurs when the items are too large, its like the last item puts them over the edge. In most circumstances if the items are on the smaller side, they will regulate themselves. I believe guppies and ghosties would be fine in that regard. I have seen many cases of bloat and death from feeding rosies, these are generally the conditions I see with overfeeding.

 

[sawrip]

Sorry to see. I've had issues with this species long term. Only Parapterois heterura has been more delicate for me.

Open mouth deaths often relate to a lack of proper gas exchange in marine fish. However, the causes for that is varied - low oxygen, high carbon dioxide or one of many gill diseases and conditions (including anemia).

Did you happen to look at the fish's gills when it was freshly dead? Their color can tell you if the fish had anemia or not; white with blotches means gill disease, pale pink means anemia and dark red is normal. Trouble is, the gills turn pale soon after death.

If you still have the fish, you could open it up and look at its liver - although a subjective measure, if you took a picture of it, I could tell you if it is normal or not.

I've looked into "delayed death" from chemical exposure and I cannot find any documentation on that issue for copper. Ionic copper can cause acute toxicity, and long term exposure can cause chronic toxic, but proper exposure has not been shown to cause death months/years later. Hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver) is the #1 killer of captive lionfish.

Jay

So I have tried my best to open him up, I guess this is the liver...

 

[sawrip]

In reference to overfeeding, this usually occurs when the items are too large, its like the last item puts them over the edge. In most circumstances if the items are on the smaller side, they will regulate themselves. I believe guppies and ghosties would be fine in that regard. I have seen many cases of bloat and death from feeding rosies, these are generally the conditions I see with overfeeding.

Yep, this is definitely not the case then. He only really has river shrimps

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I have tried my best to open him up, I guess this is the liver...

Tough to see. That looks like the stomach to me. Had the lion eaten recently? The liver will be a red/tan/white organ next to a small green gall bladder.

One more test you can do - if you can locate the liver, cut it out and drop it into a vial of seawater. If it floats, that is a crude indication that the fish had fatty liver disease.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Tough to see. That looks like the stomach to me. Had the lion eaten recently? The liver will be a red/tan/white organ next to a small green gall bladder.

One more test you can do - if you can locate the liver, cut it out and drop it into a vial of seawater. If it floats, that is a crude indication that the fish had fatty liver disease.

Jay

Opened him up a little more

 

[lion king]

I'm not the expert but I have opened up a few. The stomach is at the top and looks full, did he eat recently. I usually see things in its naturally position so I may be off. That blob like thing looks like the liver, if so it looks swollen and the dark at the topbis a hemorrhage of sorts. The liver should have been laying flat on the top as you opened him up, the color should be a carmel shade. Here' a photo of the insides of my fu manchu over 8 years, see the carmel colored liver. Liver damage does seem like the most common cause of early demise, but the cause of the damage can be many.

 

[sawrip]

I'm not the expert but I have opened up a few. The stomach is at the top and looks full, did he eat recently. I usually see things in its naturally position so I may be off. That blob like thing looks like the liver, if so it looks swollen and the dark at the topbis a hemorrhage of sorts. The liver should have been laying flat on the top as you opened him up, the color should be a carmel shade. Here' a photo of the insides of my fu manchu over 8 years, see the carmel colored liver.

Yes he eat last night, the white thing is the stomach, (leaked when I caught it) and the liver was directly on top of it - it was the first thing I came across when I made the incision from the bottom.

It's more cylindrical in shape and not flat, the bottom third seems to have a large white fatty mass.

Edit - the more I look at your pictures side by side the more I am sure:

- This is definitely the liver, location matches perfectly
- My one is swollen and has a fatty white mass at the end

 

[lion king]

Yes he eat last night, the white thing is the stomach, (leaked when I caught it) and the liver was directly on top of it - it was the first thing I came across when I made the incision from the bottom.

It's more cylindrical in shape and not flat, the bottom third seems to have a large white fatty mass.

The fat outside is not fatty liver, that is normal, lions store fat. This is natural to provide them nutrients during fasting times, people mistake that fat as being detrimental or associated with fatty liver, it is not. The liver being cylindrical is not normal, that means some sort of toxin. The liver filters toxins and the natural metabolism of the lionfish means the toxins can be stored in the liver a longer time, thats why lions are more susceptible to any type of foreign, unnatural chemical. Anything they would not incounter in the wild.

 

[sawrip]

The fat outside is not fatty liver, that is normal, lions store fat. This is natural to provide them nutrients during fasting times, people mistake that fat as being detrimental or associated with fatty liver, it is not. The liver being cylindrical is not normal, that means some sort of toxin. The liver filters toxins and the natural metabolism of the lionfish means the toxins can be stored in the liver a longer time, thats why lions are more susceptible to any type of foreign, unnatural chemical. Anything they would not incounter in the wild.

It was the white fatty bit inside the liver at the end I was thinking about (it may not be fat).

So in summary it's cylindrical, swollen and has a white mass at the end-so looks like we are looking at a toxin. I have never used any treatments in my tank expect hypo, so I do wonder if this is the impact of where I purchased him from.

 

[lion king]

It was the white fatty bit inside the liver at the end I was thinking about (it may not be fat).

So in summary it's cylindrical, swollen and has a white mass at the end-so looks like we are looking at a toxin. I have never used any treatments in my tank expect hypo, so I do wonder if this is the impact of where I purchased him from.

All along the way, collectors and suppliers use a multitude of drug cocktails.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm not the expert but I have opened up a few. The stomach is at the top and looks full, did he eat recently. I usually see things in its naturally position so I may be off. That blob like thing looks like the liver, if so it looks swollen and the dark at the topbis a hemorrhage of sorts. The liver should have been laying flat on the top as you opened him up, the color should be a carmel shade. Here' a photo of the insides of my fu manchu over 8 years, see the carmel colored liver. Liver damage does seem like the most common cause of early demise, but the cause of the damage can be many.

That's a different fish, right? The liver of this fish is mottled, tan with slight bile staining. There is a huge amount of coelomic fat below it. This is pretty typical of captive lionfish, hepatic lipidosis most likely.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes he eat last night, the white thing is the stomach, (leaked when I caught it) and the liver was directly on top of it - it was the first thing I came across when I made the incision from the bottom.

It's more cylindrical in shape and not flat, the bottom third seems to have a large white fatty mass.

Edit - the more I look at your pictures side by side the more I am sure:

- This is definitely the liver, location matches perfectly
- My one is swollen and has a fatty white mass at the end

You should open the stomach as well - it seems really swollen. Could it have had a blockage?

FYI - fish necropsies are tough to do, and doing them remotely through photographs is nearly impossible, so please take my observations with a grain of salt.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

You should open the stomach as well - it seems really swollen. Could it have had a blockage?

FYI - fish necropsies are tough to do, and doing them remotely through photographs is nearly impossible, so please take my observations with a grain of salt.

Jay

I appreciate any help Jay so thanks, I always like to try and figure out why something has happened rather than "it died and not sure why".

The stomach exploded when I moved it slighty with the tweezers unfortunately

 

[lion king]

If you start opening up more, you'll find liver damage in almost all of the ones within a year. After a couple of years or more you start finding more undetermined causes, and you'll see the smooth carmel colored beautiful liver. If you see seizures or a faded color you may find blood in the cavity likely from a heart attack or stroke like event, I generally blame something like cyanide on this, this usually happens within a week to a few weeks. I see this in other species as well. The liver thing is not my conspiracy theory, it is very common among the species whose metabolism stores, as the species that live on the fast/ gorge feeding cycle.

 

[lion king]

If they ate within a day or so you could see what some may describe as "swollen, bloated" type appearance, this is usually normal to the formation of gases during digestion. If actually bloat you may have seen hemorrhage and possible blood and a twisted appearance.