gha fades with nitrate and phos dosing

[t5Nitro]

I think I've got numbers where I want them to be. I will have to mess with the daily dose amounts to get it to be relatively stable but I'm currently at:

SG 1.024
Ca 405
Alk 8.1 (rising from 7.9 - maybe lack of coral growth is letting it climb)
NO3 5-10 (API)
PO4 0.06 (hanna ULR)

Corals all look significantly better with the exception of a monti spongodes. Cant please them all I suppose.

 

[t5Nitro]

Few questions this morning:

1. Daily AM labs at the same time, my phos was 0.01 this morning (dosed 5mL of my solution after the 0.06 read yesterday morning). I dose according to the planted tank calculator and solution should raise my tank volume 0.01ppm with each 1mL dosed. I check labs about 24 hr after.

So in the recent past it looks like these were my doses and numbers:

0.02 --15mL--> 0.06
0.06 --5mL--> 0.01
0.01 --15mL--> to be checkerd tomorrow morning

Is it pretty typical to go through this amount of phos / big fluctuations daily?

2. I've got 2 API nitrate kits. The new one I tested with reads around 10ppm. For fun I checked it against the other one back to back this morning and that one still reads 0. Hard to tell what I should be dosing nitrate wise.

 

[Lasse]

If the PO4 have been low for a long time - all reserves has been used - IMO. In these occasions it often happens that you dose and dose - nothing happens. And suddenly - you understand the expression - the ketchup effect - everythings happens. Take it carefully - do not rise the daily dose to much. As long as you dose - you have a flux through the system and the left over concentration is not so important.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jda]

The aragonite will need to bind a bunch of po4 before the tank water level rises. The rock and sand can hold a lot and their ability to absorb will increase exponentially as levels get higher. The rock and sand act as a reservoir and why it is really hard to lower a high P tank, why it takes so long to raise a truly zero P tank (very rare) and why have low, but detectable P is not an issue since if the water does get too low the rock will unbind some to even it back out.

 

[Lasse]

The aragonite will need to bind a bunch of po4 before the tank water level rises. The rock and sand can hold a lot and their ability to absorb will increase exponentially as levels get higher. The rock and sand act as a reservoir and why it is really hard to lower a high P tank, why it takes so long to raise a truly zero P tank (very rare) and why have low, but detectable P is not an issue since if the water does get too low the rock will unbind some to even it back out.

This is the reason why a tank can exist for months with zero reading but suddenly crash with the same readings as before. The reserves is empty and the flux is zero. I have read and seen this many, many times.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jda]

This is why, although I have no issues with my reefs having between 1 and 3 ppb of P in the water column, I never recommend using media or chemicals when you are this low. Not only is there no need, it also can be dangerous.

Edit - I have never seen a tank truly bottom out with P by using natural methods only - skimming, chaeto, water changes, etc. The live stuff seems to slow down (growth limit) and leave at least enough in the tank to support life. However, media, chemicals and stuff can go too far which is why I do not recommend them at all, especially when a tank is low already. The same is true with N - even in my tanks with sand a lots of highly-functioning live rock, the anoxic bacteria will get the N low at about .1 to .5, but never so low that it causes issues like organic carbon could.

 

[t5Nitro]

All really good info. I suppose itll be daily testing for a few weeks to see how these numbers are changing. I think the nitrate kit I should get something other than api. I dont want to dose any when one kit reads 10. The other always reads 0.

 

[LRT]

The aragonite will need to bind a bunch of po4 before the tank water level rises. The rock and sand can hold a lot and their ability to absorb will increase exponentially as levels get higher. The rock and sand act as a reservoir and why it is really hard to lower a high P tank, why it takes so long to raise a truly zero P tank (very rare) and why have low, but detectable P is not an issue since if the water does get too low the rock will unbind some to even it back out.

Is this also true for Nitrates? Will it stick to rocks or substrate? After my accidental overdose of Nitrates I've done several water changes but cant get it to read below 15-20ppm at this point.
I have gotten my phosphates at detectable levels.
With my Nitrates so high where should my phosphates be sitting? Right now they are between .01 and .03.

 

[jda]

Nitrate does not bind like P does. Tanks with low nitrate have areas in the sand and rocks where anaerobic/anoxic bacteria take the nitrate no3, use some of the oxygen from it and turn it into nitrogen gas to just go back into the atmosphere. Shallow sand bed, bare bottom and dead/dry rock tanks are not usually good at this - dead/dry rock can get so after a few years.

Some tanks also have large amounts of algae that can eat up some no3.

Even when a tank has plenty of sand and rocks, the bacteria will grow to equilibrium and get it low, but not too low. I have always had (and likely always will) have tanks with 2-3 inches of sand, and lots of real live rock and they will keep mind about .1 to .5 and never really any higher or lower - in all actuality, this flux from .1 to .5 is probably a test error more than a real fluctuation.

 

[LRT]

Few questions this morning:

1. Daily AM labs at the same time, my phos was 0.01 this morning (dosed 5mL of my solution after the 0.06 read yesterday morning). I dose according to the planted tank calculator and solution should raise my tank volume 0.01ppm with each 1mL dosed. I check labs about 24 hr after.

So in the recent past it looks like these were my doses and numbers:

0.02 --15mL--> 0.06
0.06 --5mL--> 0.01
0.01 --15mL--> to be checkerd tomorrow morning

Is it pretty typical to go through this amount of phos / big fluctuations daily?

2. I've got 2 API nitrate kits. The new one I tested with reads around 10ppm. For fun I checked it against the other one back to back this morning and that one still reads 0. Hard to tell what I should be dosing nitrate wise.

Had the same problem with my API kit. Which is how I overdosed my system. It read 0. I didnt catch it and kept dosing until I noticed my shrooms beginning to shrivel up.
Went and picked up a red sea kit and sure enough I was undetectable pretty much fluorescent purple.
I'd get a better kit for sure. Red sea is fairly easy to read and much more accurate. Its hit or miss with API from what I've seen and have found researching it all.
I wouldnt dose anymore until you can confirm your reading 10ppm with a different kit.

 

[LRT]

Nitrate does not bind like P does. Tanks with low nitrate have areas in the sand and rocks where anaerobic/anoxic bacteria take the nitrate no3, use some of the oxygen from it and turn it into nitrogen gas to just go back into the atmosphere. Shallow sand bed, bare bottom and dead/dry rock tanks are not usually good at this - dead/dry rock can get so after a few years.

Some tanks also have large amounts of algae that can eat up some no3.

Even when a tank has plenty of sand and rocks, the bacteria will grow to equilibrium and get it low, but not too low. I have always had (and likely always will) have tanks with 2-3 inches of sand, and lots of real live rock and they will keep mind about .1 to .5 and never really any higher or lower - in all actuality, this flux from .1 to .5 is probably a test error more than a real fluctuation.

I am running 300lbs of gulf live rock in my system. Was told it had anywhere from 18-25 years growth.
No sand all bare bottom frag tables.
Not sure why my nitrates are stuck where they are at.

 

[t5Nitro]

Good to know, thanks @LRT

I tested back to back and the initial kit reads 0 and always has despite the other reading maybe between 10 and 20. I wont dose any NO3 until I get a red sea kit in the mail. Phos I will just aim to keep at 0.05 or so by the hanna checker.

My tank is bare bottom so well see how it goes. It seems nitrate and phos are kind of a touchy balance. Definitely wouldnt want to go more than a week without testing and maybe even better to test twice weekly even when I think its stable.

 

[LRT]

Good to know, thanks @LRT

I tested back to back and the initial kit reads 0 and always has despite the other reading maybe between 10 and 20. I wont dose any NO3 until I get a red sea kit in the mail. Phos I will just aim to keep at 0.05 or so by the hanna checker.

My tank is bare bottom so well see how it goes. It seems nitrate and phos are kind of a touchy balance. Definitely wouldnt want to go more than a week without testing and maybe even better to test twice weekly even when I think its stable.

For sure man. Definently confirm those numbers. I'm cross referencing all my testing now. Even brought a sample to local lfs to confirm for me.
Doesnt take much to totally screw things up. Been dealing with the aftermath for a cpl weeks now. Some of my shrooms still haven't bounced back!
I've tossed my API kits at this point.
Better safe than sorry man.

 

[t5Nitro]

I know that something went wrong and I'm hoping it's the nitrate poor kit reliability. Fortunately only a monti spongodes took a hit, but that coral faded quickly. Seemed as if the more I dosed the worse it became each day. The other corals though seemed to look better. Unknown at this point. The edges are white. Maybe itll bounce back with stopped dosing.

 

[t5Nitro]

I've got 0.02 phos this morning from 0.01 after a 5mL dose 24 hours later.

The below is the algae I'm dealing with. It almost cleared completely off my flat rock in the center of the tank half way up the water column. This stuff hangs around the bottom glass. Hard battle to win if one fades with dosing and another grows with dosing? Wheres the middle ground to getting those clean tanks? I've got a lifereef skimmer on very dry setting, chemipure blue (havent changed in about 4 wk), filter sock on drain.

 

[LRT]

Really would like to see you confirm Nitrates. I went through phases of green, brown, red nuisance algae in my recent overdose. Dunno if it was because I got my phosphates back up to detectable levels but it seems to have subsided

 

[t5Nitro]

Interesting, alright! I will update you when I get a new kit in.

 

[jda]

I am running 300lbs of gulf live rock in my system. Was told it had anywhere from 18-25 years growth.
No sand all bare bottom frag tables.
Not sure why my nitrates are stuck where they are at.

Real live rock from the gulf is old coral masses and is very porous and effective against nitrate - this stuff has been banned since I started in the hobby in about 1990 when I rode my RedLine bike to the fish store. What has come out since then is man-made "rock" that was placed into the ocean to get stuff to grow on the exterior - this stuff is dense, heavy and not porous at all. This heavy, non-porous stuff is what most people have. In the most recent few years, more porous mined stuff has been placed into the ocean to get populated.

 

[crzyzeldafanatic]

Any updates?

 

[Timfish]

Wondering if this is typical. 6mo tank developed some cyano and GHA. Dosing nitrate and phos, no3 still undetectable despite increasing volumes of dosing. Phos around 0.03. Cyano has been pretty much gone. Gha seems to fade more and more by the day the more I dose NO3 and phos to the point the areas cleared without any mechanical removal the rocks appear very clean.

Not sure it I should keep dosing increasing amounts of NO3 until its detectable? Dosing enough to raise tank 5ppm daily and consistent read of 0. Thought it anything it would have fueled a worse GHA outbreak.

I'm not surprised at all. Reef ecosystems are very complex and there's A TON MORE going on than just nitrates and phosphates. Nilsen and Fossa's "The Reef Aquarium" Vol 1 documents pretty much what you've seen in your system. My own experiences also echo the decline of algae with nitrate and phosphate staying stable or increasing. If it was my tank I would not be dosing other than to keep phosphate above .03 mg/l. Corals are very efficient at recycling nitrogen and have simbiotic diazotrophs that can convert N2 or free nitrogen into nitrates if needed. You should also be aware sponges and biofilms (and just about everything else) are messing with nitrogen and phosphates and can be manipulating the numbers showing up on test kits just like corals and algae do. ANd be aware dosing nitrates might make corals more colorful but research has shown it has a more severe negative impact on calcification than phosphate. Here's fig. 3 from Shantz and Burkpile's review of almost 4 dozen research papers: