GHL Vs Apex Episode Series

[Derrick Picker]

I say again. Who wants to spend money monthly on a cell service to get alerts from their controller. The fact you have to setup and have SMTP to get emails is a thing of the past. I am just saying overall I am not too keen on the notifications features.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I say again. Who wants to spend money monthly on a cell service to get alerts from their controller. The fact you have to setup and have SMTP to get emails is a thing of the past. I am just saying overall I am not too keen on the notifications features.

Great point Derrick! But you are are just asking about personal value proposition. That nets out to different answers for different folk. It boils down to individual preference and requirements. Markets level these things out in the end. I'll give you my personal view. I in no way think this is everyone's reality but it's my example. I travel extensively for work (two weeks or more at a time). I love my girlfriend but her value to me is not in her ability or desire to keep a reef tank. You can assume whatever her value is lol.
I need a monitoring system that acutely differentiates power loss from internet loss. When I'm 900 miles from home I don't have someone with the technical ability to differentiate otherwise. I would actually value and pay for a service that would give me that difference when I have $20k invested in a system (which I will when completed). I realize that might put me in a minority, that's why I mentioned markets earlier. I'm a developer by trade so I easily understand tech. Reasonably so, neptune and ghl are marketing to the majority of reefers who aren't. Just thought I'd give you an example of who this makes sense for.

 

[robbyg]

I say again. Who wants to spend money monthly on a cell service to get alerts from their controller. The fact you have to setup and have SMTP to get emails is a thing of the past. I am just saying overall I am not too keen on the notifications features.

Hey Derrick I am not beating up on you in any way. If it comes across that way I apologize for that.
I am looking forward to each of your videos and I watch them and learn from them. BTW thanks for showing me how to get the Apex out of Military time and into 12 hour mode. I did not even know that it could be changed.

As for Real SMS.
I have long been baffled by what people will spend money for in this Hobby. We now have the Mastertronic coming out for $1300 and your going to have to spend in excess of $55 a month on reagents if you want to do one test per day. To me that's absolutely crazy but to the person who has a lot of money invested in SPS coral and very little time to deal with water testing the price is not an issue.

As @Rob.bucek said, he travels a lot so money spent getting accurate notifications is super important to him. I would imagine if he is headed to the Airport etc. and gets a no Heart Beat alert he is going to be pretty upset if he turns around the car and finds out that only the internet was down. I am in the same boat as him, I often travel and if I get a no power alert it means that if at all possible I am turning around and going back home. I love the SMS feature so much that I actually bought a backup SMS module for mine. Then again I have a backup for just about everything on my tank including a whole new Aquatronica controller set with all the modules I already have now.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I say again. Who wants to spend money monthly on a cell service to get alerts from their controller. The fact you have to setup and have SMTP to get emails is a thing of the past. I am just saying overall I am not too keen on the notifications features.

I think in terms of SMS we can put a check mark in the "Cons" column for apex and one in the "Pros" for GHL.

 

[Derrick Picker]

 

[RobB'z Reef]

Just got through episode 6. Really enjoying the preview of both systems. They clearly have very similar capabilities to this point but you can see how the Apex is a lot more polished on the interface.

 

[Derrick Picker]

Thank you for watching!

been hard at work with these trying to show the differences as much as I can show.

 

[robbyg]

I think in terms of SMS we can put a check mark in the "Cons" column for apex and one in the "Pros" for GHL.

Just this Afternoon my SMS Module saved me from a major headache.
I had come home for lunch and saw an issue with the tank. I ended up plugging out some stuff to reach the problem and when I was done it seemed like the last wire I messed with ran behind my 12V Wall wart that powers my Aquatronica Controller and when i was pulling on it the Wall wart became unplugged.

I was in such a rush I never checked anything except the skimmer which was now running fine.
Within a minute I was at the front door ready to go to the car when I suddenly got the message at the bottom of this screen shot. The one above it was when I plugged back in the wall wart back in and the controller rebooted and everything was fine again. If this had been an Apex I would have been back at work already before I got notified that something was wrong and my first assumption would be that a power outage had occurred or the internet was down.
In this case I got alerted to exactly what was wrong in under a minute.

I also get alerts if a power bar or any module goes off line or if there is a power outage.
In all cases I am told exactly which module is not responding as well as it sends me a message to let me know when they are working again. All other programmed alarms like Temp issues or leak sensors all work the same way.

 

[Derrick Picker]

 

[Derrick Picker]

Episode 8 coming up.

 

[robbyg]

I am not an Apex programming expert but I was wondering why the video centered around logic and then just used a simple "OR" statement as an example. The reason I ask is because that's really the most basic operation and one that avoided having to go into the more complex Apex virtual Outlet programming. In other words you setup the GHL using the same foundation for doing any of the more complex operations like "AND" mixed with "OR" but used it for simply "OR" statements so that you did not have to go into the more complex side of the Apex. Maybe I am missing something in the video so it would be nice if you clarified. I agree the GHL is more complex for getting simple tasks done but the beauty is that scaling it up for more complex tasks becomes very easy.

You Basically saying turn the Skimmer off if any one of those three conditions are met.
You could simply do that on any old controller going back before XYZ programming became available.

As an example of what I would think would be a more comparative example would be to see how they both handle a real world program for something like roller mats that need both AND/OR statements. If not just pick something that needs a mixture of both as this is a very common situation in real world controller use.

My controller is programmed that the roller mat can only engage the floss motor if
(The Roller Mat level is high for 5 minutes AND the returns pumps output is above 500 GPH AND the feed mode is OFF AND The Sump Level is OK) (OR if the function button for Roller Mat Feed button is pressed)

What involved with both GHL and Apex to get that running. And BTW that is something that is needed as I wasted almost a roll of floss before I realized that if any one of the conditions is not right it can cause the motor to run endlessly.

 

[Derrick Picker]

 

[Aaronhome27]

I am not an Apex programming expert but I was wondering why the video centered around logic and then just used a simple "OR" statement as an example. The reason I ask is because that's really the most basic operation and one that avoided having to go into the more complex Apex virtual Outlet programming. In other words you setup the GHL using the same foundation for doing any of the more complex operations like "AND" mixed with "OR" but used it for simply "OR" statements so that you did not have to go into the more complex side of the Apex. Maybe I am missing something in the video so it would be nice if you clarified. I agree the GHL is more complex for getting simple tasks done but the beauty is that scaling it up for more complex tasks becomes very easy.

You Basically saying turn the Skimmer off if any one of those three conditions are met.
You could simply do that on any old controller going back before XYZ programming became available.

As an example of what I would think would be a more comparative example would be to see how they both handle a real world program for something like roller mats that need both AND/OR statements. If not just pick something that needs a mixture of both as this is a very common situation in real world controller use.

My controller is programmed that the roller mat can only engage the floss motor if
(The Roller Mat level is high for 5 minutes AND the returns pumps output is above 500 GPH AND the feed mode is OFF AND The Sump Level is OK) (OR if the function button for Roller Mat Feed button is pressed)

What involved with both GHL and Apex to get that running. And BTW that is something that is needed as I wasted almost a roll of floss before I realized that if any one of the conditions is not right it can cause the motor to run endlessly.

What?!? Lol. This pretty much makes no sense. He's doing a comparison video. Not a deep dive into programming. He's showing basic apples to apples as best he can since ghl doesnt have straight forward programming like the simplified programming apex has available for many basic needs most users would need . Some of the things apex does ghl can't do. You realize he's many hours into this comparing the two. You want deep dive into complex programming watch a video on complex programming.... Lol

 

[User1]

I think in terms of SMS we can put a check mark in the "Cons" column for apex and one in the "Pros" for GHL.

Is that true if it is discontinued? Semantics I guess.

I think if the module was still available or maybe supported is a better term than I would say it is a plus because it is more in control of the hobbyist. On the other hand the other brand(s) (apex for example and also Seneye) both send notifications from the cloud reaching back. It is out of the end user control other than enabling the feature.

I don't know or really care (do not mean that in a snarky ton) which is better. I can see a means to an end with both solutions. And both are actually reviewing products it seems and discontinuing some. Hope everyone is well and staying safe!

 

[robbyg]

What?!? Lol. This pretty much makes no sense. He's doing a comparison video. Not a deep dive into programming. He's showing basic apples to apples as best he can since ghl doesnt have straight forward programming like the simplified programming apex has available for many basic needs most users would need . Some of the things apex does ghl can't do. You realize he's many hours into this comparing the two. You want deep dive into complex programming watch a video on complex programming.... Lol

If you watch the video it's not a deep dive for the GHL!
All he has to do is select "AND" instead of "OR" from the drop down menu.
The same code he has already has should work.
The question is what is involved for the Apex in order to go from "OR" to "AND"?
Maybe it's simple but I would like to know since using "AND" Logic is almost a must for anybody using a controller.

 

[TheHarold]

I am not an Apex programming expert

So I am no GHL programming expert... but it is not easy for even the most basic programming at the moment. It has no scripting whatsoever or information within the app.

For example for my skimmer, it needs a defer when it comes back on, and to turn off if the temperature is high.

So here I go, based off of looking at this link:

1. Filter 1 Delayed on 180s
2. Filter 2 Delayed on 300s
3. Filter 3 Delayed on 300s
4. Maintenance 1 Delayed on 180s
5. Maintenance 2 Delayed on 1800s
6. Programmable logic 1 AND programmable logic 2
7. Programmable logic 6 AND programmable logic 3
8. Programmable logic 7 AND programmable logic 4
9. Programmable logic 8 AND programmable logic 5
10. Programmable logic 9 AND temperature alarm 1 (inverse)

Now for my heater in the sump (don't want to overheat if no flow).

11. Filter 1 And filter 2
12. Programmable logic 11 and Maintenance 1
13. Programmable logic 12 and Maintenance 2
14. Programmable logic 13 (inverse) AND Temperature 1 heater

^Not sure if I need an inverse there or something.

Now I want to add a digital input to my skimmer. A simple float switch. What do I do? I have to put it on programmable logic #15

15. If programmable logic 10 AND digital input 1.

From then on, the programming is somewhat messy, and might need to be redone at some point to restore any organization on that output.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

What?!? Lol. This pretty much makes no sense. He's doing a comparison video. Not a deep dive into programming. He's showing basic apples to apples as best he can since ghl doesnt have straight forward programming like the simplified programming apex has available for many basic needs most users would need . Some of the things apex does ghl can't do. You realize he's many hours into this comparing the two. You want deep dive into complex programming watch a video on complex programming.... Lol

I noticed it to. It seems that he chose a set of tasks that would be fairly easy for the Apex to accomplish, but failed to point out how GHL would out perform if given a more complex task. It doesn't seem like a fair comparison.

If you watch the video it's not a deep dive for the GHL!
All he has to do is select "AND" instead of "OR" from the drop down menu.
The same code he has already has should work.
The question is what is involved for the Apex in order to go from "OR" to "AND"?
Maybe it's simple but I would like to know since using "AND" Logic is almost a must for anybody using a controller.

I pride myself on being pretty competent in apex logic. You're right, the OR statement can be accomplished in fusion fairly easily. Each line of code can be interpreted as OR If you require the apex to perform a task only when 2 conditions are met you would need at a minimum 2 virtual outlets and get creative with very specific conditions (at minimum Set OFF, IF THEN ON, IF THEN OFF) and have the actual outlet point to both of the virtual outlets to indicate IF ON THEN ON, IF ON THEN ON.... It really gives you a headache if you have to do more complicated tasks.

 

[Derrick Picker]

I have a video on doing or/and and so forth on Apex. It is not needed for this series. Just showing a basic understanding of basic programming and then a more complex example. The tasks are NOT on GHL and therefore it makes it easier to program.

I also do not understand "Out Perform". I have my Apex doing a TON of things without any issues.

 

[robbyg]

So I am no GHL programming expert... but am struggling with even the most basic programming at the moment. It has no scripting whatsoever or information within the app itself, and you have to look online for examples for how to do things.

In addition there is no organization available in the Programming logic area. Its an absolute mess- just a giant list that gets longer and longer.

For example for my skimmer, it needs a defer when it comes back on, and to turn off if the temperature is high. (On apex I can make it shut off if the return pump or skimmer is pulling too much power, but I understand that feature is not available yet.)

So here I go, based off of looking at this link:

1. Filter 1 Delayed on 180s
2. Filter 2 Delayed on 300s
3. Filter 3 Delayed on 300s
4. Maintenance 1 Delayed on 180s
5. Maintenance 2 Delayed on 1800s
6. Programmable logic 1 OR programmable logic 2
7. Programmable logic 6 OR programmable logic 3
8. Programmable logic 7 OR programmable logic 4

Now for my heater in the sump (don't want to overheat if no flow).

[note that this is still not working code, do not copy!!]
11. Filter 1 OR filter 2
12. Programmable logic 11 OR filter 3
13. Programmable logic 12 OR Maintenance 1
14. Programmable logic 13 OR Maintenance 2
15. Programmable logic 14 (inverse) AND Temperature 1 heater

^Not sure if I need an inverse there or something. Still learning, but it doesn't work.

Now I want to add a digital input to my skimmer. A simple float switch. What do I do? I have to put it on programmable logic #16 for my skimmer!!!!

16. If programmable logic 8 AND digital input 1.

From then on, the programming is kind of screwed- a total mess, and mine will have to be entirely redone at some point to restore any organization on that output. On a complex system, this seems impossible to manage.


It feels like a PLC, with just boolean and everything listed numerically. It's not easy. Cant wait to start to add timers to the programming logic that will need to be referenced back and forth confirming what timer does what when troubleshooting.

On a side note, I have a breakout on a S port, for relays (digital outputs). Spent about an hour scouring the internet for where I could find those digital outputs to assign to a switch channels before giving up .

If you had asked me about th

I noticed it to. It seems that he chose a set of tasks that would be fairly easy for the Apex to accomplish, but failed to point out how GHL would out perform if given a more complex task.


I pride myself on being pretty competent in apex logic. You're right, the OR statement can be accomplished in fusion fairly easily. Each line of code can be interpreted as OR If you require the apex to perform a task only when 2 conditions are met you would need at a minimum 2 virtual outlets and get creative with very spec

So I am no GHL programming expert... but am struggling with even the most basic programming at the moment. It has no scripting whatsoever or information within the app itself, and you have to look online for examples for how to do things.

In addition there is no organization available in the Programming logic area. Its an absolute mess- just a giant list that gets longer and longer.

For example for my skimmer, it needs a defer when it comes back on, and to turn off if the temperature is high. (On apex I can make it shut off if the return pump or skimmer is pulling too much power, but I understand that feature is not available yet.)

So here I go, based off of looking at this link:

1. Filter 1 Delayed on 180s
2. Filter 2 Delayed on 300s
3. Filter 3 Delayed on 300s
4. Maintenance 1 Delayed on 180s
5. Maintenance 2 Delayed on 1800s
6. Programmable logic 1 OR programmable logic 2
7. Programmable logic 6 OR programmable logic 3
8. Programmable logic 7 OR programmable logic 4

Now for my heater in the sump (don't want to overheat if no flow).

[note that this is still not working code, do not copy!!]
11. Filter 1 OR filter 2
12. Programmable logic 11 OR filter 3
13. Programmable logic 12 OR Maintenance 1
14. Programmable logic 13 OR Maintenance 2
15. Programmable logic 14 (inverse) AND Temperature 1 heater

^Not sure if I need an inverse there or something. Still learning, but it doesn't work.

Now I want to add a digital input to my skimmer. A simple float switch. What do I do? I have to put it on programmable logic #16 for my skimmer!!!!

16. If programmable logic 8 AND digital input 1.

From then on, the programming is kind of screwed- a total mess, and mine will have to be entirely redone at some point to restore any organization on that output. On a complex system, this seems impossible to manage.


It feels like a PLC, with just boolean and everything listed numerically. It's not easy. Cant wait to start to add timers to the programming logic that will need to be referenced back and forth confirming what timer does what when troubleshooting.

On a side note, I have a breakout on a S port, for relays (digital outputs). Spent about an hour scouring the internet for where I could find those digital outputs to assign to a switch channels before giving up .

If you had asked me this a few years back I might have been able to help you but I have pretty much forgotten all the GHL programming I knew after I setup one for a friend of mine who installs tanks.
I remember being very intimidated at first but after playing around with some simple programs by using a simulated tank on my dining room table using a one gallon container and attaching all the probes and level switches and including a desk lamp and two Toms Aqua lifter pumps. I got to see how each section worked and soon I was able to make complex programs for a Tank that ended up in a hotel lobby. Just a suggestion but I think its always best to start off the learning process using something that is small and something that you can see the effects right away. I use lights to simulate plugged in heaters and chillers and ICE and HOT water to change the temp. I actually use lots of small lights to see when each outlet is activated and if they are activated under the conditions I programmed them for.

 

[Aaronhome27]

If you watch the video it's not a deep dive for the GHL!
All he has to do is select "AND" instead of "OR" from the drop down menu.
The same code he has already has should work.
The question is what is involved for the Apex in order to go from "OR" to "AND"?
Maybe it's simple but I would like to know since using "AND" Logic is almost a must for anybody using a controller.

How do you figure. I run a reef club and manage sometimes hundreds of ranks at any given time. How many of them can you guess actually do any "AND" "OR" programming. Apex is set up with simple command capability. You want to set up feeding select it from a drop down. Not one line of code ever entered. Doing an apples to apples comparison for most users is more realistic than showing a deep dive into and programming that only a small percentage use. You want to feed your fish. Set your feed timers on apex. Ghl doesn't even actually have feed timers. I see inky the same 2 people trolling to complain about the videos. Meanwhile the typical user is looking for a simple to use device. So far apex does that and ghl fails. If one wants to get more in depth into custom programming apex does this as well with simple logic. Not bouncing from page trying to decide what filter means when it has nothing to do with a filter. Apex so far is showing it has all levels of users in mind. Ghl..... Well you'll have to take notes to remember what, half the phrases mean. And it's not simple drop down menus for ease of use. It's not jumping from page to page to find something from here to go there. It's a simple AND / OR logic. But I'm sure you'll keep trolling on as you've proven to do.