Goby and Peppermint Shrimp Gone

[immo]

So, I added 2 peppermint shrimp, and a watchman goby to my tank yesterday. Fusion 15 AIO (only the two shrimp for a few days until I could get with a friend to pass his off to him). Did a 3 minute freshwater dip, temperature acclimated to my tank for 20-30 minutes before doing dip. Dip went off without a hitch. Original salinity from shipping container was indeed low, but seeing as how 0-35 was more drastic.... Temp acclimated the shrimp for the same amount of time. All the inhabitants were in good shape as of last night, acting normal and even eating. When I got up for work, one of the shrimp was dead (12 hours later, and the one that had eggs), and the other shrimp had molted (definitely a molt, I used to keep freshwater shrimp). Removed the body. Came home, and the other shrimp, and the goby were both dead (22 hours later). Nothing apparently wrong with the bodies (CUC had started doing their job..) I have a clown fish, and 2 zoa frags also in the tank. Clown seems perfectly fine, and I can't see any kind of issues on the fish. I tested the water after the deaths, and it is as follows.
NH3/NH4 - 0.2 ppm
NO2 - 1 ppm (Red Sea and API)
NO3 - 10 ppm
pH - 8.0 (API and digital - I can't see well enough for the Red Sea pH)
Alkalinity - 9 dkH

All the parameters were stable (slight uptick in the ammonia, but I figure my issue explains that). I don't know why these inhabitants died. I'm new to saltwater, so I'm looking for answers as to what I could have potentially done wrong. The only thing that I have changed recently was removing GFO from my filter, and adding PolyFilter on 2/18.

I may have posted in the wrong sub forum, I'm really not sure, but apologies if so.

 

[carguy4471]

I can't offer much on your loss as I'm pretty new myself. I'm sorry to hear about your losses. I'm certain folks will be along pretty quick to dive in.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So, I added 2 peppermint shrimp, and a watchman goby to my tank yesterday. Fusion 15 AIO (only the two shrimp for a few days until I could get with a friend to pass his off to him). Did a 3 minute freshwater dip, temperature acclimated to my tank for 20-30 minutes before doing dip. Dip went off without a hitch. Original salinity from shipping container was indeed low, but seeing as how 0-35 was more drastic.... Temp acclimated the shrimp for the same amount of time. All the inhabitants were in good shape as of last night, acting normal and even eating. When I got up for work, one of the shrimp was dead (12 hours later, and the one that had eggs), and the other shrimp had molted (definitely a molt, I used to keep freshwater shrimp). Removed the body. Came home, and the other shrimp, and the goby were both dead (22 hours later). Nothing apparently wrong with the bodies (CUC had started doing their job..) I have a clown fish, and 2 zoa frags also in the tank. Clown seems perfectly fine, and I can't see any kind of issues on the fish. I tested the water after the deaths, and it is as follows.
NH3/NH4 - 0.2 ppm
NO2 - 1 ppm (Red Sea and API)
NO3 - 10 ppm
pH - 8.0 (API and digital - I can't see well enough for the Red Sea pH)
Alkalinity - 9 dkH

All the parameters were stable (slight uptick in the ammonia, but I figure my issue explains that). I don't know why these inhabitants died. I'm new to saltwater, so I'm looking for answers as to what I could have potentially done wrong. The only thing that I have changed recently was removing GFO from my filter, and adding PolyFilter on 2/18.

I may have posted in the wrong sub forum, I'm really not sure, but apologies if so.

The shrimp mainly needed a Good acclimation and not sure why the FW dip but sound like osmotic shock. The acclimation, I may be confused on but I am not a fan of drip method which does Not sound like you did but There are various methods used and mine is described below but often with shipping bags, Acclimation is more critical as
fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag.
I generally:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out.

 

[Sharkbait19]

What was your acclimation procedure? Given both inverts and fish dying it can rule out disease.

 

[MnFish1]

So, I added 2 peppermint shrimp, and a watchman goby to my tank yesterday. Fusion 15 AIO (only the two shrimp for a few days until I could get with a friend to pass his off to him). Did a 3 minute freshwater dip, temperature acclimated to my tank for 20-30 minutes before doing dip. Dip went off without a hitch. Original salinity from shipping container was indeed low, but seeing as how 0-35 was more drastic.... Temp acclimated the shrimp for the same amount of time. All the inhabitants were in good shape as of last night, acting normal and even eating. When I got up for work, one of the shrimp was dead (12 hours later, and the one that had eggs), and the other shrimp had molted (definitely a molt, I used to keep freshwater shrimp). Removed the body. Came home, and the other shrimp, and the goby were both dead (22 hours later). Nothing apparently wrong with the bodies (CUC had started doing their job..) I have a clown fish, and 2 zoa frags also in the tank. Clown seems perfectly fine, and I can't see any kind of issues on the fish. I tested the water after the deaths, and it is as follows.
NH3/NH4 - 0.2 ppm
NO2 - 1 ppm (Red Sea and API)
NO3 - 10 ppm
pH - 8.0 (API and digital - I can't see well enough for the Red Sea pH)
Alkalinity - 9 dkH

All the parameters were stable (slight uptick in the ammonia, but I figure my issue explains that). I don't know why these inhabitants died. I'm new to saltwater, so I'm looking for answers as to what I could have potentially done wrong. The only thing that I have changed recently was removing GFO from my filter, and adding PolyFilter on 2/18.

I may have posted in the wrong sub forum, I'm really not sure, but apologies if so.

I wouldn't have ever freshwater dipped an invertebrate.

 

[immo]

The shrimp mainly needed a Good acclimation and not sure why the FW dip but sound like osmotic shock. The acclimation, I may be confused on but I am not a fan of drip method which does Not sound like you did but There are various methods used and mine is described below but often with shipping bags, Acclimation is more critical as
fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag.
I generally:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out.

If I plan to do a freshwater dip on fish, are the parameters other than temperature relevant? Should I do an acclimation as you outlined, and then do a freshwater dip? I can understand that I might have been a bit too relaxed on acclimating the shrimp, but I did check the shipping water salinity, and it was within 1 ppm of my tank salinity.

 

[immo]

I wouldn't have ever freshwater dipped an invertebrate.

I didn't. Only the fish

 

[immo]

What was your acclimation procedure? Given both inverts and fish dying it can rule out disease.

Temp acclimated in bag for 20-30 minutes (acclimated RODI water for freshwater dip at the same time), released shrimp into tank (without dip) and 3 minute freshwater dip on the goby (with air line running in water). Released into tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Temp acclimated in bag for 20-30 minutes (acclimated RODI water for freshwater dip at the same time), released shrimp into tank (without dip) and 3 minute freshwater dip on the goby (with air line running in water). Released into tank.

Then there are a couple options (that I see)

1. A toxin in the tank (was anything else living - it seems like a new tank?)
2. a mis-measurement in salinity or some other parameter - between the ld tank (bag) and the new tank.
3. Poor flow or something else resulting in low O2
4. A mis-read ammonia test - such that the animals died from ammonia that was thought to be low - but in fact was not

 

[vetteguy53081]

If I plan to do a freshwater dip on fish, are the parameters other than temperature relevant? Should I do an acclimation as you outlined, and then do a freshwater dip? I can understand that I might have been a bit too relaxed on acclimating the shrimp, but I did check the shipping water salinity, and it was within 1 ppm of my tank salinity.

Keep the FW dip out of the picture as its generally used for disease prevention of temporary relief from certain conditions and Not a treatment. Acclimation is very important and parameters especially salinity and ph play a vital role assuming your test levels are accurate. Doing a repeat acclimation is now too late and may cause more harm than good.

 

[immo]

Then there are a couple options (that I see)

1. A toxin in the tank (was anything else living - it seems like a new tank?)
2. a mis-measurement in salinity or some other parameter - between the ld tank (bag) and the new tank.
3. Poor flow or something else resulting in low O2
4. A mis-read ammonia test - such that the animals died from ammonia that was thought to be low - but in fact was not

There’s a clown fish that’s been in there for around a month and is still doing fine. 2 zoa frags. A moon is has been stable. Have used 2 different test kits. Today was the first time it was elevated any but I figure the deaths explain that change. I’m running a return pump and a Nero 3 on 20% minimum. The salinity could potentially be a problem as I don’t have anything to check against. But the levels I have seen have never been reason to question its accuracy. The only potential toxin I can think of would have been the zoas. I don’t know if that’s prone to cause fish death.
Could poly filter be an issue?

 

[immo]

Keep the FW dip out of the picture as its generally used for disease prevention of temporary relief from certain conditions and Not a treatment. Acclimation is very important and parameters especially salinity and ph play a vital role assuming your test levels are accurate. Doing a repeat acclimation is now too late and may cause more harm than good.

So I need to acclimate ph salinity and temp before a freshwater dip? I assumed (that word tells it all doesn’t it) that the salinity acclimation would be a moot point as I am literally taking the fish from salt to fresh to salt. I do the freshwater dip because a qt just isn’t an option for my living arrangements. Would this still explain the delayed death? At 4 am the fish was still good. As was one of the shrimp.

 

[Cyanohater]

So, I added 2 peppermint shrimp, and a watchman goby to my tank yesterday. Fusion 15 AIO (only the two shrimp for a few days until I could get with a friend to pass his off to him). Did a 3 minute freshwater dip, temperature acclimated to my tank for 20-30 minutes before doing dip. Dip went off without a hitch. Original salinity from shipping container was indeed low, but seeing as how 0-35 was more drastic.... Temp acclimated the shrimp for the same amount of time. All the inhabitants were in good shape as of last night, acting normal and even eating. When I got up for work, one of the shrimp was dead (12 hours later, and the one that had eggs), and the other shrimp had molted (definitely a molt, I used to keep freshwater shrimp). Removed the body. Came home, and the other shrimp, and the goby were both dead (22 hours later). Nothing apparently wrong with the bodies (CUC had started doing their job..) I have a clown fish, and 2 zoa frags also in the tank. Clown seems perfectly fine, and I can't see any kind of issues on the fish. I tested the water after the deaths, and it is as follows.
NH3/NH4 - 0.2 ppm
NO2 - 1 ppm (Red Sea and API)
NO3 - 10 ppm
pH - 8.0 (API and digital - I can't see well enough for the Red Sea pH)
Alkalinity - 9 dkH

All the parameters were stable (slight uptick in the ammonia, but I figure my issue explains that). I don't know why these inhabitants died. I'm new to saltwater, so I'm looking for answers as to what I could have potentially done wrong. The only thing that I have changed recently was removing GFO from my filter, and adding PolyFilter on 2/18.

I may have posted in the wrong sub forum, I'm really not sure, but apologies if so.

yea uh. I'm not too sure about a fresh water dip, that is not the smart play I think. as stated probably osmotic shock died from stress/shock

 

[Cyanohater]

So I need to acclimate ph salinity and temp before a freshwater dip? I assumed (that word tells it all doesn’t it) that the salinity acclimation would be a moot point as I am literally taking the fish from salt to fresh to salt. I do the freshwater dip because a qt just isn’t an option for my living arrangements. Would this still explain the delayed death? At 4 am the fish was still good. As was one of the shrimp.

I can't qt either I don't have the budget for this and space (Im a teenage reefer, tight on money) I've also inspected fish, and the tanks when purchasing.With this I found an LFS that has good qt measures. I've never had a disease problem.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So I need to acclimate ph salinity and temp before a freshwater dip? I assumed (that word tells it all doesn’t it) that the salinity acclimation would be a moot point as I am literally taking the fish from salt to fresh to salt. I do the freshwater dip because a qt just isn’t an option for my living arrangements. Would this still explain the delayed death? At 4 am the fish was still good. As was one of the shrimp.

likely shock which progressed. Once again- Leave the FW dip out of the equation which is not a substitute for quarantine and offers No advantage or safety for the fish and may have been a contributor. Too late to acclimate as fish are already in the tank- This should have been done prior to and in the future- acclimate well and again DO NOT do a freshwater dip. A substitute to a FW dip would be a bath in formalin or ruby rally pro for 45-60 mins

 

[snackpack]

I can't qt either I don't have the budget for this and space (Im a teenage reefer, tight on money) I've also inspected fish, and the tanks when purchasing.With this I found an LFS that has good qt measures. I've never had a disease problem.

Edit - Disregard my rambling.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I need to acclimate ph salinity and temp before a freshwater dip? I assumed (that word tells it all doesn’t it) that the salinity acclimation would be a moot point as I am literally taking the fish from salt to fresh to salt. I do the freshwater dip because a qt just isn’t an option for my living arrangements. Would this still explain the delayed death? At 4 am the fish was still good. As was one of the shrimp.

Dips are short term stress, but acclimating up permanently from low to high salinity is a long term stress. What was the salinity of the shipping bags compared to your display?

BTW - giving a FW dip to new fish isn’t a good idea. Dips are not very effective at reducing disease and giving a dip while a fish is already being stressed isn’t good.

Jay

 

[immo]

I only did a FW dip because I was under the impression that it was better than nothing, and would help to reduce incoming parasites etc. The salinity on the shrimp was 33.7, and my tank was 34.2. The fish salinity was like 31.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I only did a FW dip because I was under the impression that it was better than nothing, and would help to reduce incoming parasites etc. The salinity on the shrimp was 33.7, and my tank was 34.2. The fish salinity was like 31.

O.K., that rules our osmotic shock from shipping, those values are pretty close.

jay