Going fallow

Doglips56

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@Jay Hemdal Im going to have to go fallow. About to lose my yellow coris wrasse too. Can’t get him near the trap so not eating. Has a large white “sore” on its tail adjacent to tail fin. Many have developed the same. The Prazi in the tank didn’t even kill my bristleworms but made me softies really mad, they haven’t quite gotten over it yet.
picking up a bigger tank Thursday so I have something big enough for everyone to be treated in. Will read article about QT’ing difficult fish because I have a goby and a blennie.
still have no frigging idea what I’m dealing with. Coris wrasse was MIA for an entire day. Came out yesterday but wouldn’t eat or go near trap. Tried to box him in but he dive boned into the sand and hasn’t been seen since.
Thanks for all your help.
Nancy
 

Jay Hemdal

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Sorry to hear. In many cases, it is just not possible to diagnose an due on purely gross visible symptoms. A microscope helps in some cases, but even that fails in identifying viral and most bacterial diseases.
Be sure to have a solid biofilter in your QT, you don’t want to have to battle ammonia issues on top of everything else. What fish do you think you’ll have left to move over to the QT?
Jay
 

vetteguy53081

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It’s a bummer but a wise decision which also exemplifies patience and willingness to fix and resolve issues at hand
It will pay off and allow you time to develop a new stocking plan
 
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Doglips56

Doglips56

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What fish do you think you’ll have left to move over to the QT?
Two Oc. Clowns, 2 blue green chromis (one is already in QT), the purple pseudochromis (also already in QT), Diamond Goby, Lawnmower Blenny, Pajama Cardinal, yellow eye Kole tang juvenile and African cleaning wrasse. I’m pretty sure the yellow coris wrasse will die before I could get it moved. Also Jay, do you know where I could send the wrasse for a necropsy to see if we can figure out what we’re dealing with?
Thank you for your continued support. I am going to be using my 40 gallon breeder for the QT tank. It has been housing 2 healthy fish for months so it is all cycled. They will be moving to the new 55 gallon we will be building as a fish only tank. We like several non reef safe fish too. So the 9 small fish will go into the 40 and I will start medicating that tank, probably only with Prazi or Metro/Kana. Not sure yet, that’s why I’d like the necropsy. Well actually I’m going to transfer most of the water from the 40 to the 55 and the water from the curren smaller QT and it’s filters also already cycled into the 40 and then add more water to that. I will make sure to keep track of ammonia levels.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Sorry, I don’t know of any firms currently doing necropsy on home fish. The big issue is getting the fish soon enough after death. Even 4 hours makes things tough to determine. My own necropsy success rate runs at < 50% good diagnosis. I preserve some and send them to a lab for histopathology, but that costs $350+ and often finds issues that weren’t even cause of death.
Jay
 
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brandon429

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I wanted to add in the notion of doing a sandbed deep clean specific to reasons posted for the fallow, ich removal

its written that's an area of respite for the targets. we happen to have about five hundred examples of bed cleans on file/no losses because people know that moving homes and not rinsing a sandbed is risky.

from the constant updates from our sand rinse thread we have discerned its good to clean them anyway, without cause, as a preventative for eutrophication. your diving fish has helped to some degree, but not with tomonts I think we should rip clean it as you have things removed.

we'd basically guarantee a skip cycle reassembly, and you can ride out your fallow just fine afterwards, cleaning is never antibiotic other than the actual flush. what remains adhered/plenty. I feel a target cleaned sandbed goes hand in hand with strong fallow prep. it directly addresses organic insulation for the targets we're trying to starve. in addition to that it is fun to compile years and years pictures of the same job over and over.
 
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Doglips56

Doglips56

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Sorry, I don’t know of any firms currently doing necropsy on home fish. The big issue is getting the fish soon enough after death. Even 4 hours makes things tough to determine. My own necropsy success rate runs at < 50% good diagnosis. I preserve some and send them to a lab for histopathology, but that costs $350+ and often finds issues that weren’t even cause of death.
Jay
Bummer. You wrote an article that references quarantining difficult to QT fish, correct?? I’m really going to have to make a decision regarding how to treat them. Should I start with parasite treatments and hyposinity then switch over to copper? Start with copper (though I’ll have to read the article to see if the goby and blennie and cleaner wrasse can even be in copper. I just want them all to get well and for my reef to get well, even if it takes 4-6 months. To me they all have little souls and little personalities and it’s a little heartbreaking to lose them. I’ve lost one after another. I’ve got to take this more drastic action I believe to stop it before they’re all dead.
 

brandon429

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I disagree w that Fishsticks

the reason, you aren't using any of that data to effect cures/log them on file. I realize you may be against the practice of prevention, but fallow is what was selected here so why not maximize the offer. Any disgreements someone has with bed cleaning wont matter in a thread logging five hundred sand cleans, pick the reason its all the same and we have the outcomes logged, my recommend is based on literally years of seeing those jobs through to the end. then collecting eight month/3 yr follow ups.

I think the OP wanting to handle ich via fallow follows what the work shows, in threads where people take corrective measures this is the best we can get.

Ill read any alternate links of work you might have. The typing above didn't give steps nor a thread we could inspect for outcome patterns.

I don't want to see a thread of Paul's tank. I want to see a thread where you took a public tank / ich and turned it around, remotely, not in your home. That's what the op needs as I read it/alternatives that have decent consistency and are being used in the disease forum to lessen losses.
 

brandon429

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I see no alternate links we can peruse for the recommended counter actions, but I want to see that as we need diverse stickies as reference.

I know not everyone agrees with fallow, but what the OP has read regarding it being his best option is out there, in work threads, as a sticky, and we don't have alternates to read about here but need some.

the sand rinse thread its findable for anyone serious enough to look. Same for humblefish posts on sandbed crypto

Sandbed rinsing can't become evil only in certain threads, its either bad for reefs or good...the reason why doesn't matter.

We have good logged on file, same outcome as if they're moving homes.
Can pick out bristle worms if wanted to vs dose for them, I want them gone too. Who cares if they're sandbed fauna, I want them gone they are into my acan once/ caught.

A boxer crab ate the rest of mine.

for those that practice fallow, we've been directly told the sandbed can cause fallow failure. Why go halfway in, cleaning out a 40 b makes it last longer anyway.
 
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brandon429

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this can still be a good science discussion. It’s hard to know what to best do for disease.

it seems at least in line with current practice that if fallow was never ran before then redoing that can’t hurt. A fair and basic summary of non qt reefing options includes absolutely top level feeding

not pre made feed, chef made. You’ve seen pauls feed prep.

so once a general direction for preventatives has been chosen it seems feed quality and tank filtration will need to be addressed, non quarantine disease control relies heavily on live feed and seafood purées etc as I read it. every animal in reefing would benefit from totally fresh food, this maximizes immunity as I read it.

another thing non quarantiners like: true aged rock. Not a dry rock system. It seems in order to play up non qt approaches you need to boost diet and use aged rocks in the display= disease suppression through diversity
 
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Doglips56

Doglips56

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this can still be a good science discussion. It’s hard to know what to best do for disease.

it seems at least in line with current practice that if fallow was never ran before then redoing that can’t hurt. A fair and basic summary of non qt reefing options includes absolutely top level feeding

not pre made feed, chef made. You’ve seen pauls feed prep.

so once a general direction for preventatives has been chosen it seems feed quality and tank filtration will need to be addressed, non quarantine disease control relies heavily on live feed and seafood purées etc as I read it. every animal in reefing would benefit from totally fresh food, this maximizes immunity as I read it.

another thing non quarantiners like: true aged rock. Not a dry rock system. It seems in order to play up non qt approaches you need to boost diet and use aged rocks in the display= disease suppression through diversity
I feed top level food. No need to be rude. You must think you’re perfect eh @Fish_Sticks but you’ve been reported to admin. I don’t come here to be abused, I come here for information.
 

Fish_Sticks

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Yea I have no idea what I'm talking about - backstory would have been nice, but oh well.

I still think nutrition will be a big factor. Brandon is spot on with how to go about the nutrition and diet increase, and it can be done whether or not you go fallow.

That, and figuring out a way to make the transfer as low-stress as possible would go a long way in making the process sucessful.

Brandon, do you think aloe skim coat would be beneficial in the qt tank? I know it is mainly used in freshwater aquariums, due to skimmer problems, but it might be of some use.
 

brandon429

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the truth is I don't even keep fish Im only interested in post patterns and going where the most return is, no joke. Other than the feeding and background tank maximization vs the norm I haven't seen other standouts. my pico reef is for aged tank testing - no fish too small

*remember that recent thread on reefs back in the 80's


this stuff wasn't such a rippable event lol the tank looked like they had full grown ventalina gorgs in them with every rock growth permissible/they were onto something.

statistically they had even QT and fallow beaten in terms of fish disease retention, we've retrograded on that as a hobby considering how easy it is to simply control nh3 off the bat no wait.

the other 99% of the years-long wait to turn moderate rocks into 80's quality lr afforded much disease help that tanks miss nowadays, only going off post patterns.

In my cycling threads which advocate full start as fast as you want lol we have an entry for fallow. if everyone was willing to score fully cured rocks I bet we could get away with more

but the market: 89% dry white rock starts. hands down. the market wants reliable start dates for adding two clowns more than they want coralline covered rock that runs twenty different systems so we don't have to dose it. Matter of fact 89% hate that rock, it has a hitchhiker or two hundred.

The market wants the most pared-down rock it can get to house two clowns nearly instantly.
 
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Doglips56

Doglips56

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Yea I have no idea what I'm talking about - backstory would have been nice, but oh well.
I did not give the entire backstory because I was giving @Jay Hemdal an update which is why I started the post by tagging him. I didn’t DM him because his post on this forum was to please NOT DM him.
The very last thing I want to do is go fallow, believe me. I feed a fresh made reef frenzy with top quality seafood that we process ourselves. We add top quality (at least we’ve been told it’s top quality) pellets, garlic fortified Nori, mysis shrimp, brine shrimp and seaweed. I offer fresh Macroalgae (Red Ogo, Dragon’s Breath and sea lettuce) on a clip. I feed pellets in the afternoon and evening. I will try to dig up the pictures of all the fish I’ve lost over the past several months. I was actually able to catch 2 of them because they got too sick to fight. They are still alive and doing well after a multi pronged treatment in a QT tank. I’m not a seasoned reefer, I rely on forums and articles and sticky notes and experts like Jay and Humblefish and people from my local reef club. None of them can figure it out either and some have been here to look for themselves. Most of the fish I have left have been in here from day one after cycling, almost a year. They were all tiny baby fish and we’ve nurtured them and babies them and watched them grow. Now they are being picked off one at a time by some mystery illness that no one has been able to identify without a necropsy or microscope. I’m NOT going to sit here and watch every single one of them get sick and suffer and ultimately die if I can prevent that. It is my fault...everything was fine until my husband brought home a mandarin goby. Rather than looking up the article I unfortunately at the time didn’t know existed (QT’ing difficult fish) we drip acclimated it and put it dire crazy into the DT. It’s not Velvet or Brooke as it doesn’t attack the gills, I was certain it was flukes so treated for that but with limited success.
List of fish who have died since we added the mandarin:
Mandarin Goby
PJ Cardinal
Royal Gramma
Redhead Salon Fairy Wrasse
Fire goby
Yellow coris wrasse

have saved two by removing and treating (not simultaneously) with copper, Prazipro, Metroplex and Kanaplex. They are finally well but compromised so no way will they go back into DT.
This is pseudochromis at worst, there’s another one further down in QT mid treatment, now it’s comple
3E77AB20-B5F0-450E-BFD0-527102898A10.jpeg
73D15C86-0A77-4E16-A03F-045B8EE95466.jpeg


4B1BF904-DE06-430F-8769-5C0E9D8E3223.jpeg

The blue chromis (1 of 2) before falling ill and Red Headed Solon that I could not trap before it died. I believe this was taken the day it finally succumbed but had been lethargic about a week. This is the one that made me think Flukes. The chromis fell ill several weeks l
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gorgeous yellow coris wrasse. Last time I saw it yesterday it wouldn’t eat, hadn’t gone near the trap which has been in ther for 4 days now. We tried to net it since it was so lethargic but it divebombed i so sand and haven’t seen it since. More difficult to see on the yellow but had a large white spot (not a pinpoint ich spot) which took up the entire last 1/4 of its tail on one side. It was white and looked like an ulceration. My rather large CUC, which includes a reef lobster will most likely have the remains cleaned up before I find it
74E5F446-2D0B-493E-BCB3-1E94FD46C9F6.jpeg

The mandarin goby that died first and started the cycle of illness and death
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completely healthy PJ Cardinal. Had 2, other one is fine for now
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Pelleted food I use along with fresh seafood frozen diet
image.jpg

This is the blue chromis that was extremely close to death a week ago. But is now doing well in QT
image.jpg


I couldn’t find pictures of the Royal gramma but it also had a white ulcerated area on its tail.
Is this enough background for you? My coral and inverts are thriving.
 

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brandon429

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nice. those coralline spots look like sand dollars that's a nice setup. I believe you've arrived where todays best data gets you. If that was my tank/same issue i'd have no other recourse than to do what HF showed in years prior. maybe someday they'll streamline bottled additives to handle a strong retention % but it does seem you've legit arrived at fallow for lack of other options.

other than the older style systems where rocks are aged out years and years before fish (boring) not sure of any other way to help here. id be doing Jay's disease preps from the posts ive read.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Bummer. You wrote an article that references quarantining difficult to QT fish, correct?? I’m really going to have to make a decision regarding how to treat them. Should I start with parasite treatments and hyposinity then switch over to copper? Start with copper (though I’ll have to read the article to see if the goby and blennie and cleaner wrasse can even be in copper. I just want them all to get well and for my reef to get well, even if it takes 4-6 months. To me they all have little souls and little personalities and it’s a little heartbreaking to lose them. I’ve lost one after another. I’ve got to take this more drastic action I believe to stop it before they’re all dead.
Ha, I don’t remember writing that, just a short section on observational quarantine.

Hyposalinity is good for ich and Neobenedenia flukes. I always start with copper, unless I know the fish have Neo, then I start with hypo. I do prazi after that (3x) and then 2 weeks of observation. Cleaner wrasse are tough. I run the in quarantine with a lot of big fish to be “cleaned”, the fish mucus gives them more to eat.
Jay
 
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Doglips56

Doglips56

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@Jay Hemdal - just found the coris wrasse with only it’s face sticking out of the sand and breathing heavy. I know the attached picture is terrible but I tried to get him out of the sand and he shot away from me. I’ll never be able to catch it where it is now. This is a picture of the ulceration with a flashlight shining in. Under the blue lights it looks bright white and the white now covers an entire 1/3 of one side of the tail end. I have no idea what to do. My husband is at work and as sick as it is it’s still faster than me. I don’t think it’ll make it through the night.
3D267B5A-A32B-4DDC-8A3E-4345370598B6.jpeg

Ha, I don’t remember writing that, just a short section on observational quarantine.

Hyposalinity is good for ich and Neobenedenia flukes. I always start with copper, unless I know the fish have Neo, then I start with hypo. I do prazi after that (3x) and then 2 weeks of observation. Cleaner wrasse are tough. I run the in quarantine with a lot of big fish to be “cleaned”, the fish mucus gives them more to eat.
Jay
Lol maybe you didn’t write it. I finally caught the yellow wrasse but it’s really bad and I’m not sure it’ll make it thru the night. I have it in a bucket because it’s way too sick to go into the QT with the other two
 

Jay Hemdal

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When I hear of a yellow coris with a lesion like that, I always jump to Uronema. That’s a tough one to treat, and when you see it combined with rapid breathing, I’ve not been able to save them. Luckily, Uronema does not affect all fish equally; mostly wrasse and chromis.
Jay
 
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Doglips56

Doglips56

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Ha, I don’t remember writing that, just a short section on observational quarantine.

Hyposalinity is good for ich and Neobenedenia flukes. I always start with copper, unless I know the fish have Neo, then I start with hypo. I do prazi after that (3x) and then 2 weeks of observation. Cleaner wrasse are tough. I run the in quarantine with a lot of big fish to be “cleaned”, the fish mucus gives them more to eat.
Jay
If the cleaner wrasse appears completely healthy, though it’s been in the “sick” tank, what do you think of me putting it in my fish only tank. I have a sailfin tang and a coral beauty a couple of peppermint shrimp and rocks. I have different meds here that can be used as a dip or bath. Have any thoughts on that?
 
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