Gripe! Gripe!

[Wy Renegade]

but surely 20 frags/local population is < 20 frags/national population- no? You're absolutely right- we talk ourselves often into how rare something is, and while I suppose many purchase based upon that, I really believe they're a minority- most people buy based on what they think looks cool. The potential rarity may affect that decision, but I don't believe it to be the primary rationality with the majority of people.

Ah, but you see, on a national level, its not about the majority or minority, its simply about finding that one sucker who will pay the price - thats not supply and demand. And my personal opinion is that I don't believe its the minority that are getting sucked into the high prices. IMO the minority are the ones that are sitting back, watching the soaring prices and shaking their heads. The minority are the ones that are trading corals and cherry picking from friends tanks. Want a current example, look at Lee's sale thread, even he admits he got caught up in the name game and bought stuff based on the name rather than appearance, no he's dumping the vast majority of it and keep only a very few. Why? Cause the real thing seldom stands up to the jaked up internet pictures under the bright blue lighting and its just not real impressive.

And certainly there's very few items being transhipped via the single polyp- just like there's very few SPS's being transhipped via 1" pieces, right? But if there's 20 colonies of 50 zoa's imported to the US, that's 1,000 polyps. Seems like a reasonable number sample for a 'rare' polyp, right? Lets say 60% never find their way online (I personally believe it's even less that make it 'online' but regardless) that's 400 polyps left for the entire national consumption of online buyers. 400 polyps/national consumers- is that rare or not? I'd say it's rare- but that's just my take on my numbers, so not worth much, lol.

Do you really think that anyone is collecting and shipping anything that is rare? My personal opinion is that if you're seeing it transhipped it ain't rare, period. The rare ones are still in the ocean and collectors aren't allowed to take them out of the ocean, so if they are truly rare, you're not seeing them.

As for gas- obviously I don't have a problem with it or else I wouldn't keep driving my truck and buying gas to do so- There is not a single person in the world forcing me to buy gas. Only person who's doing so is myself- so while I may cuss everytime I pass a gas station and see the price, I'm not going to hate anyone for it but myself. I could take the bus, I could walk, bicycle, convert my vehicle to propane/natural gas, or any number of other options for transit without gas- but I purchase the means that I prefer, and thus the cost I'm paying is apparently justified by me, the consumer. I see zero difference between it and my coral buying- if I didn't feel like paying the price, I shouldn't-there's alternatives. But just like my view on bicycling, I equally don't like the idea of having a tank full of xenia and GSP :tongue:

Once again, you're ignoring the point that even though you choose to pay the price for gas, it really has nothing to do with the supply of gas. Oil companies raising the price of gas using any excuse that comes along. We pay, because we've choosen a lifestyle that requires us to. Not all of us have the choices that you do. There is no public transportation available in this part of the country, walking or biking isn't going to get me the 12 miles to town and home that I make on a daily basis regardless of weather, and propane is more expensive than gasoline, so why would I convert over? I do choose to own and drive the most economic vehicle I could get locally, but I still have to pay the price like it or not. But again, that price is not set by supply.

Arguing that the coral market is based on supply and demand IMO is an incorrect and invalid argument. Its not really about supply and demand, its become more and more of a collectors game. Any time you have something that is collectable, you are going to get those individuals who both buy and sell with an eye strictly to making a profit, and any time you have that, you have individuals who are going to try and create a desire to purchase that has nothing to do with true supply and demand.

Truth is that very little of the American economy is driven by true supply and demand. If it were, food would be one of the most expensive items out there, and farmers would have to be subsidiesed by the American Government and therefore the taxpayers (read me and you). True supply and demand went out of the American economy a long time ago. People always want to argue that its supply and demand because we've all learned in school that that is what our economy is based on - in reality in todays world, its not.

Again, I have nothing against those who need to make a profit making a reasonable profit. Truth is I'm all for it, many members of my family are in buisiness and make their living that way.

 

[nixer]

really can there not be a thread like this that doesnt turn into a poo slinging fest?
todays prices are entirely based on speculation! period.
straight across the board.. from the producer to the end user.

either way if you think one colny made it here and only one youve got blinders on. just look at this last few weeks when those micromussas hit this board and you will see that there was atleast 5 vendors with the same exact ones! if your going to go on averages say thats roughly 15% of this board. this board is less than .02% of this country and less than .0002% of the world. do you think those transshippers dont pinch? do you think those collectors dont know where more is? do you think that coral wasnt offered to thousands before it got to the vendor? if you do then your simple minded!

believe me ive been in these types of markets for along time its no different than the reptile industry and do you want to know where that went? over to japan and china because they pay more and they cant breed crap. do you wanna know what happened here? you have one person charging 150-200$ and another trying to gouge and fool ppl (stating the same b.s. reasons as listed here such as shipping (which is a joke) cites which isnt no where near what half of ppl claim it costs(unless you have a bonehead vendor that does one thing per cites permit) into paying 800$ for the same reptile! ive sold snakes for more $ that what some pay for their cars! dont believe me ask some of the vendors here how many used to do reptiles! youll be surprised! i was and i still am in that loop!


point here is this do i spend my $ here yes. im not ashamed nor quiet about it. do i have a taxid and an actual business yes. is it a fish related business NO! why do i buy from here instead of wholesale(like i could) because i like to selectively pic what i want and only what i myself want and get a simile from another self respecting person. i dont care of the name. will i be gouged no. will i be sold misrepresented pics NO! why because im not an idiot! just keep posting all those photochopped pics and see how long you last in any industry! keep ripping off ppl and see how far that takes you.

 

[PR_Reefers]

Generally speaking, I try not to get involved in these discussions. First off, vendors do have prices to offset and many vendors are very reasonably priced. That said, I have to disagree with this statement;



In many cases, prices within the coral community have nothing to do with supply and demand. Want a recent example, look at the Happy Coral PE - when it it the market the vendor/namer kept his prices somewhat reasonable - other vendors were trying to market it under a different name a $60 per polyp and I'm sure some people bought it for that. Others were able to buy entire large colonies for $30 for the entire colony from an LFS. Those online vendors had no more invested in the cost of that coral or any other than those LFS's did. It had nothing to do with supply and demand - it was pure and simple; greed. In reality on-line vending has much less to do with supply and demand than local vending does.



IMO, one of the major differences between those you mention Brian and online vendors is pure and simple the target audience. A LFS or any type of local store has to sell to the local population and prices are much more reasonable. On-line vendors have the advantage of a much larger target audience, and therefore online sales may or may not have anything to do with supply and demand.

LOL... you got a point... I was just saying theoretically!

This is great hahahahah!!!! One thing you got to understand and I know first hand a Lfs will get me anything I want "so they say" here is what happens..... I said I want a fuego dudes like yeah no problem here is the catch yeah it's like $60 for a frag and the vendors sell it for $150 a inch.... In order to buy that said coral you have to buy $1000.00 worth of garbage corals and sit on it to get that said coral!!!!! For every one hot piece you gotta spend a couple grand on the norm.... When they have a tank full of the norm it sits they nickle and dime it and don't make squat off it really with all the time and effort involved then comes the money piece this is the mark up this is where they have to make there dollar so yeah it makes sense!!!!! There is some high end vendors who only get that one piece they pay top dollar to other vendors to get it with out the garbage that comes with it so yeah those prices make sense to me...... I would love any one single vendor or person on here to tell me this isn't true....;) been there done that lol.....

I agree good explanation!

 

[Nuocmam]

Food crops are subsidized by he government.

 

[drainbamage]

Food crops are subsidized by he government.

yea, I realized it wasn't worth debating further if that wasn't being realized- we've made many socialist trends as a nation over the past 120+ years for the sole reason of winning votes by elected individuals, if we start muddying the debate by including those policies, it's not going to go anywhere, lol.

 

[Nuocmam]

It doesn't matter if the supply is in surplus of the demand if only a group of individuals control the supply. They create the demand by controlling the supply. Whether we're talking about corals or oil.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Food crops are subsidized by he government.

yea, I realized it wasn't worth debating further if that wasn't being realized- we've made many socialist trends as a nation over the past 120+ years for the sole reason of winning votes by elected individuals, if we start muddying the debate by including those policies, it's not going to go anywhere, lol.

Yep sorry, my post was supposed to have the word "not" in it, but I was in too big of a hurry and missed typed it. LOL, oh well.

 

[drainbamage]

LOL, gotcha Randy...in that case ill come up with a reply later to continue the fun :D