Happy Corals next to Dying Corals. Help!

[ekandler]

I have happy corals next to dying corals, some corals which were thriving are now dying while others continue to thrive. I can't seem to find the cause and I haven't changed anything. My tank is about 3 years old but I redid some of the rock about 6 months ago which started a mini-cycle, but now I have a healthy and thriving population of coraline again. I decided to do an ICP test for my tank and the RO, the results are attached. I test/dose for alk/calc with a Trident/DOS. Only other thing I dose is mag when needed and Brightwell aminos daily. I don't believe flow or lighting are my issue, so I've been trying to focus on chemistry, but I can't seem to find a cause. I try to keep consistent low nutrients, 0.03ish phosphate and 5ish nitrate, but as you can see that doesn't always happen, which is confusing because my feeding schedule doesn't change (frozen every other day, nori daily, pellets daily on an auto feeder).

For coral you can see I have a previously healthy cyphastrea which grew onto the rock and is receding... I also have birdsnets with extended polyps but are dying from the tips down, I see the polyps peeling off and floating away. I also had a rock of healthy clove polyps, a nice sized rock that i'd been growing for 6 months, which is now completely retracted and might just be disintegrating. My torches also are not as extended as I'd expect, but my other euphyllia is happy. I also have a monti cap which has never been happy (it's probably dead) but it's next to several monti digis growing fine with good polyp extension...

any advice?

 

[ekandler]

To add, I know simple is usually better, so I really don't do anything other than dosing and water changes with red sea blue bucket. I have a skimmer and refugium for nutrient export and UV and carbon in a reactor to try and cut down on any toxins or whatever, but that's it. I don't understand how i can be having this much trouble with a mature system and regular water changes with good salt.

 

[ekandler]

bump

 

[Dennis Cartier]

The only thing I see in the ICP, is that K is a bit low, and Ca could some up a bit. However, your Fe looks high perhaps? Normally ICP has a hard time detecting Fe when it is in the suggested range. Are you dosing Iron?

Elevated iron on its own does not usually cause any issues (other than browning), but it also drives algae and bacterial growth. Unless you have something bacterial going on.

 

[ekandler]

The only thing I see in the ICP, is that K is a bit low, and Ca could some up a bit. However, your Fe looks high perhaps? Normally ICP has a hard time detecting Fe when it is in the suggested range. Are you dosing Iron?

Elevated iron on its own does not usually cause any issues (other than browning), but it also drives algae and bacterial growth. Unless you have something bacterial going on.

I don’t dose any trace elements. I try to keep it simple, cause I’ve been told that’s the smartest approach and I don’t want to dose anything I can’t test for, so I do water changes for trace element replenishment and that’s it. With that in mind, i don’t know how I can have high/low anything in trace elements, like Gold which is high in my reef tank but not in my RO, so where is it coming from? And my Iodine which is low…

for calcium, according to my trident I’m consistently between 420-440ppm. Also, mag according to my trident is around 1315ppm, so almost 100ppm off from ICP. I don’t know what’s up with that.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Ok, looking more closely at the ICP, I take it the bottom one is your RODI? The little triangle is supposed to be an indicator to raise that element? If so, they are suggesting you raise your Zinc, Manganese, Iodine and Cobalt. A concern, which I missed on first pass, sorry, is that your ICP is showing 2.75 ppm of phosphate. That is a really high phosphate level (if correct).

As to your question as to where your high traces are coming from? The only thing you are adding is food, so they are coming in with the food.

You should double check your method of testing phosphate because you list a tested level of 0.03 and your ICP is showing a level about 100x that.

What to do? Well Zinc is a biologically important trace, and your RODI shows some, and your tank shows 0. My suggestion would be to try an additive like E.S.V Transition Elements, which would raise your Zinc and Manganese, 2 of the elements that your ICP is suggesting to raise. It also contains Iron, which you have plenty of, but I suspect that your lack of zinc may be a limiting element for you. There is no (easy) way to test for these elements, other than ICP, so you would need to follow the dosing instructions on the product carefully.

How will you know it is working? If zinc is functioning as a limiting element, which I suspect it is, you corals will probably start to lose colour and brown out once you start dosing the transition elements. This may seem counter productive, but it would indicate the zooxanthellae are just being freed from the limitation and are suddenly reproducing.

You may want to start the transition elements at a half dose, because the phosphate level (if correct), will cause a huge surge in the zooxanthellae population, and you don't want your corals to bleach and expel their symbiants.

So double checking your means of testing phosphate, and cutting back on feeding if phosphate level is true, and addressing the zinc with ESV Transition Elements, would be my advice. Randy will likely chime in with his take.

 

[ekandler]

Thanks for the detailed reply. For phosphate I test using a hanna ULR checker. You're right, and I missed the ICP result of 2ppm phosphate as well, which is crazy high. I don't understand how that's possible...You are correct, yellow is elements which are low, red is elements which are high. To be fair, this is ICP-Analysis.com testing, which I've heard mixed reviews on, but have a few of because they're cheap, so I recently got a few Triton ones I was going to try but those aren't usually quick turn arounds.

For food, I feed LRS reef frenzy, Hikari Marine A pellets, and Two Little Fishes nori sheets. I use all of those because they are really popular and I didn't want to have to question my food sources, but you're right, it's the only place I'm adding stuff to my tank... So I wonder which is causing the issue.

I've tried trace element dosing in the past, and that's who I ended up with 100ppm iodine... then the advice was keep it simple, but maybe I can't do that anymore. I'll give your suggestion a try, i'll just need to find a trace element solution that works. Thanks for the help.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I have also heard of, and seen, some odd results from others that have used that ICP vendor. If you are using a Hanna ULR for testing, than that phosphate result looks very questionable. Getting a second opinion from Triton sounds like an excellent idea.

The ESV product is targeted at elements that are biologically important for corals and macros, but are depleted quickly. It is a very narrow trace additive, as far as traces go.

 

[ekandler]

I'll try Triton and get report back (probably in a month). In the meantime, when I dosed trace elements in the past I used Tropic Marin Trace K+/A- which I still have laying around. The K+ contains strontium, barium, iron, manganese, copper, zinc, nickel, chrome, cobalt and boron. That seems to be where my issues lay, so If you agree, I'll try adding some of that in the meantime.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Personally, I would purchase the ESV product instead as it is better targeted at what you are depleted on, and would not accumulate other slower to deplete elements.

Your elevated iron, if true, would also point to a zinc limitation as iron usually depletes fair rapidly.

If you want to try the TM K+ product in the meantime to see if the addition of zinc gets any reaction, I think it is a worthwhile test.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Phosphate is showing 2.8 ppm in the chart. That could be an issue.

 

[ekandler]

Okay I’ll definitely order that then.

Phosphate is showing 2.8 ppm in the chart. That could be an issue.

I agree, if it’s correct, which I’m highly skeptical of. I’m using ICP-Analysis (cause they’re cheap) but I use Hanna ULR at home and test regularly, at least once a week, and I’ve never had anything close to that high. I posted my last months results in the main post but i don’t believe that phosphate value, which has now put into question the rest for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay I’ll definitely order that then.

I agree, if it’s correct, which I’m highly skeptical of. I’m using ICP-Analysis (cause they’re cheap) but I use Hanna ULR at home and test regularly, at least once a week, and I’ve never had anything close to that high. I posted my last months results in the main post but i don’t believe that phosphate value, which has now put into question the rest for me.

Certainly could be inaccurate. They have recently had lots of issues.

 

[ekandler]

Ok, looking more closely at the ICP, I take it the bottom one is your RODI? The little triangle is supposed to be an indicator to raise that element? If so, they are suggesting you raise your Zinc, Manganese, Iodine and Cobalt. A concern, which I missed on first pass, sorry, is that your ICP is showing 2.75 ppm of phosphate. That is a really high phosphate level (if correct).

As to your question as to where your high traces are coming from? The only thing you are adding is food, so they are coming in with the food.

You should double check your method of testing phosphate because you list a tested level of 0.03 and your ICP is showing a level about 100x that.

What to do? Well Zinc is a biologically important trace, and your RODI shows some, and your tank shows 0. My suggestion would be to try an additive like E.S.V Transition Elements, which would raise your Zinc and Manganese, 2 of the elements that your ICP is suggesting to raise. It also contains Iron, which you have plenty of, but I suspect that your lack of zinc may be a limiting element for you. There is no (easy) way to test for these elements, other than ICP, so you would need to follow the dosing instructions on the product carefully.

How will you know it is working? If zinc is functioning as a limiting element, which I suspect it is, you corals will probably start to lose colour and brown out once you start dosing the transition elements. This may seem counter productive, but it would indicate the zooxanthellae are just being freed from the limitation and are suddenly reproducing.

You may want to start the transition elements at a half dose, because the phosphate level (if correct), will cause a huge surge in the zooxanthellae population, and you don't want your corals to bleach and expel their symbiants.

So double checking your means of testing phosphate, and cutting back on feeding if phosphate level is true, and addressing the zinc with ESV Transition Elements, would be my advice. Randy will likely chime in with his take.

Does this seem to be the response you were expecting? This is the state of some of my corals at the moment…

 

[Dennis Cartier]

That is not a good result. It looks like your hard corals are RTN'ing. Were you able to get a second ICP?

I am hesitant to give any other advice as I am not sure if anything will change the trajectory. So instead, I will tell you what I do in these situations. Sadly we have all had them.

When it becomes apparent that I am having a crash, I first look for a cause, like you are doing. If a cause remains elusive, then I try to stabilize the tank as much as possible. Performing water changes, slowing down dosing to let my alk settle to around 7.0 dKh. With a bit of time, and luck, some of the frags and colonies will sometimes stop RTN'ing and start to regrow. When you don't find a cause though, it is a bit unsettling as you are not sure that the problem has been corrected.

Hopefully the second ICP shows something obvious.

 

[ekandler]

That is not a good result. It looks like your hard corals are RTN'ing. Were you able to get a second ICP?

I am hesitant to give any other advice as I am not sure if anything will change the trajectory. So instead, I will tell you what I do in these situations. Sadly we have all had them.

When it becomes apparent that I am having a crash, I first look for a cause, like you are doing. If a cause remains elusive, then I try to stabilize the tank as much as possible. Performing water changes, slowing down dosing to let my alk settle to around 7.0 dKh. With a bit of time, and luck, some of the frags and colonies will sometimes stop RTN'ing and start to regrow. When you don't find a cause though, it is a bit unsettling as you are not sure that the problem has been corrected.

Hopefully the second ICP shows something obvious.

I did send off a Triton ICP last week and I was notified they received it Monday, still waiting for results. I'll report back with anything. I'm still doing the daily K+ supplements, so I'll keep up with that and my plan was to do another Triton ICP in a month. I did a 15 gallon water change tonight (90 gallon tank) cause that's the biggest I can do. I'll keep an eye on it, but i'm not sure what to do other than keep doing water changes.

Assuming my Trident is correct, this is my alk over the past week or so. been pretty stable i'd say, so I don't think alk is my issue. I've honestly had this exact issue for years now, never been able to identify a cause... The reaction my birdsnest is having in that picture is how every birdsnest I've ever had responds, but you can see my digi that's dying (was a forest fire) is right in front of a healthy red digi... so I'm just confused over all. I genuinely don't know how I can be this bad at reefing ha To be honest I just want it to work, after years of exploring, and i've tried reaching out to professionals to assist me but it usually ends in them just as confused, which is amazing ha

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Ok, let's see what the ICP shows. I would stop the K+ until you get confirmation that your don't have any elevated metals.

In the meantime, I would suggest you go back over your parameters. Getting a Salifert Alk test to confirm that the Trident is not way off from what it is reading, or have your alk tested at a LFS, would be a good idea. I would also double check your salinity. If your salinity it too high or too low, it can cause RTN'ing like you are experiencing. Your description about different coral types seemingly to all RTN around the same time (torches together, birdsnest and montipora) reminds me of a crash I had caused by elevated salinity when I mistook density (g/ml) for specific gravity on German hydrometers.

 

[ekandler]

Ok, let's see what the ICP shows. I would stop the K+ until you get confirmation that your don't have any elevated metals.

In the meantime, I would suggest you go back over your parameters. Getting a Salifert Alk test to confirm that the Trident is not way off from what it is reading, or have your alk tested at a LFS, would be a good idea. I would also double check your salinity. If your salinity it too high or too low, it can cause RTN'ing like you are experiencing. Your description about different coral types seemingly to all RTN around the same time (torches together, birdsnest and montipora) reminds me of a crash I had caused by elevated salinity when I mistook density (g/ml) for specific gravity on German hydrometers.

I have an Alk hanna checker which I just used and is showing 8.4dkh, so right on par with my latest Trident readings. For salinity all I have is a normal refractometer which is showing 1.0245-1.025 at the moment. I calibrated it before I used it, but it's obviously not the most precise tool.

 

[ekandler]

Okay so I got my ICP results back from Triton. A few things jump out at me 1) everything is in the green except there are a lot of chemicals at 0, including zinc, 2) my phosphate came back at 0.03ppm, suggesting "ICP-Analysis.com" is not accurate.

I assume the stuff at 0 is my issue, but if you just look at the "allowable" zones per this ICP test, my tank should be perfect... and it's not... and the confusion continues.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

The only elements on the ICP at 0, that you may want higher than 0 are Vanadium, Zinc, Manganese, Iron. Though a lot of these could just be below Triton's LOD (level of detection), so they may not be actually 0, just too low to detect. Your Iodine is quite low. I would look to raise your iodine a bit as too low or too high can cause issues.

Again, I would suggest ESV B-Ionic Transition Elements, which would provide Zinc, Manganese and Iron. I would also look to dose Iodine. ESV also has an Iodine supplement. I would try these 2 and wait to see if things improve before worrying about anything else. With all the water changes you are doing, it is surprising that you have any low traces.

Another product that you could try, is KZ Coral Booster. I hate to recommend KZ products as they are expensive, have a short shelf life and are a mystery as to what they contain. However, every time that I have used it, corals never fail to respond to it with better health and growth. In the past, if I noticed a slowing of growth and decrease in health, adding Coral Booster has turned things around before STN sets in. Your dealing with RTN though, so it may not be as dramtic of a fix, or even a fix at all. If you do try it, I would discontinue the other aminos you are using as I suspect it has aminos in it (though no one can say for sure).

The only thing in the yellow zone of your ICP was Iodine.