Hi guys. After putting every fish in my tank in quarantine. I have ich. I don't have enough space to take them out and treat them. I have been trying ich management. I have lost two fish so far and one in hiding in my 125 gallon. This is my second parasite infection in a year. The first was with velvet and I lost everything. I then left tank fallow for three months. It's seems the tank is causing more stress than helping. I don't understand how some people just throw there fish in the tank and get lucky. It might be time for a break or a tear down.[emoji35]
Have to vent . I think I might be out.
- Thread starter jpcrash1
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Kremis
Valuable Member
I run ich management. What fish did you put in? It can get frustrating at times, but there are some fish you should avoid that ALMOST never work in ich management, the biggest group of these being blue tangs and acanthurus tangs.
Mr. Limpid
Active Member
Do you have inverts in your DT? If not you can either run Cupramine or Hypo in your DT. Sounds like tank transfer is out of the question. Most aren't lucky if your read some of these threads.
Yes, tank was ich free, I thought. I added a blue hippo and he had first sign of it. It got my copperband and I think my coral beauty (have not found him yet). My fox face is hiding and hanging around my cleaner shrimp.
I know your discouraged right now and I don't blame you, a few years back we had 3 tanks set up, never qt'd anything going in and didn't have issues. Moved and setup a new system and didn't realize we were fighting velvet that took 3 rounds of fish. Our tank has been sitting fallow for over 76 days but we refuse to get beat! As a matter of fact I'm getting ready to add water to my second DT tank and have a set up a QT. I'm not sure why the parasite issues seem to be more prominent now vs a few years ago, perhaps they were and we were ignoant to them or we just got plain lucky.
Hang in there, I actually done a mental rewind of what I stocked and added and when it was added to figure out where things may have gone wrong. I made so many mistakes it's impossible to nail down since we bought everything in the tank from different lfs's.
This time I plan on buying from 1 source, I have monitored all 4 stores during my fallow period and eliminated 3 baised on tank cleanliness and/or actually looking closely at the fish in their DT's and spotting ich on their fish! One lesson learned inspect, inspect, inspect, monitor, monitor, monitor before they ring that register! Hopefully you can keep your chin up, figure out where you think things went wrong, fix it and get that reef going.
Hang in there, I actually done a mental rewind of what I stocked and added and when it was added to figure out where things may have gone wrong. I made so many mistakes it's impossible to nail down since we bought everything in the tank from different lfs's.
This time I plan on buying from 1 source, I have monitored all 4 stores during my fallow period and eliminated 3 baised on tank cleanliness and/or actually looking closely at the fish in their DT's and spotting ich on their fish! One lesson learned inspect, inspect, inspect, monitor, monitor, monitor before they ring that register! Hopefully you can keep your chin up, figure out where you think things went wrong, fix it and get that reef going.
That sucks dude im in the same boat right now gotta fallow again and bad as is it is might have to dump your sump and restart your bb in there cause im certain that in there would be like a cespool for that parasite to infest and swim its way back into the dt imo good luck man try fw dips might help reduce the infestation on the fish
Also what you can do its a sacrifice but throw a molly in there and wait for the free swiming to affect the molly this is the only form that medicines will be effective on being you dont have corals or inverts you can treat your dt and kill all or most of the ich atleast to manageble levels its a long shot but might be worth it due to size of your tank again good luck
mcarroll
10K Club member
I don't know if it'll help (I hope!) but...
Rabbitfish are tougher, but adding them to the tank first along with two other fish was also asking quite a bit of your tank.
So the basic needs of new fish have't changed:
If you had a UV filter on hand I'd say to start running it. If the fish you have left are still mostly healthy, then it'll be work picking one up more than likely.
If you already had or could get a micron (diatom) filter like the Vortex or Marineland models out there, I'd be running that too.
Both will cut down on infectious agents in the water column while your fish recover some more.
There are some whole-tank treatments that may help with this too, but I'd avoid them if you're still thinking of the long-term for the reef itself. Stick with focused treatments like UV and micron that only impact what makes it into the filter.
What are you feeding the fish currently? And which fish are still around? (Be specific about each fish's condition if possible.)
In The Future
Pick only the healthiest fish.
Add them one at a time with a month or so in between from now on....not in groups....at least until the tank significantly matures.
(that's a lot easier if you're shopping at the LFS vs online)
Make sure your QT is homey, not cramped and prison-like.
It doesn't have to impress anyone though, it just has to be a basic, serviceable, functional fish-only system.
A minor chunk of live rock, a PVC part or two to act as a cave and enough plastic plants so the fish don't feel the need for the cave all the time, etc.
Plan for a separate hospital tank if at all possible. Treating in-QT when the need arises is possible, but it complicates things....especially if you do have more than one fish in the QT, but even for a single fish.
- Quarantine is an imperfect tool....in fact, it can even be outright harmful to the fish.
- "Fallow periods" are a nice idea, but are equally imperfect.
- Neither one is the panacea folks want them to be – no permutation of quarantining is perfect.
- Even if it was perfect, are the folks implementing it likely to be perfect? Nope.
- There's more to (what has now become) the alternate route than "getting lucky".
Rabbitfish are tougher, but adding them to the tank first along with two other fish was also asking quite a bit of your tank.
So the basic needs of new fish have't changed:
Stressed fish still need recovery time for their immune system.
Quality food helps a lot.
Being around other healthy fish helps a lot.
Being in a mature, healthy tank helps a lot.
Being a new fish-keeper puts you at a disadvantage.
Having am immature tank puts you at a disadvantage.
Those last two are REALLY important and both will diminish in importance with time.
So the slower you move through the tank's stages, the less amount of impact either disadvantage can have
As time goes on – this takes patience – tank maturity and your fish-keeper status will shift and become your strongest advantages.
Don't even try to build and stock your whole tank before that shift happens. Try to avoid as much building and stocking as your are able to until that shift happens. Space everything you plan to do out even more if you have to.
As For What To Do Right NowQuality food helps a lot.
Being around other healthy fish helps a lot.
Being in a mature, healthy tank helps a lot.
Being a new fish-keeper puts you at a disadvantage.
Having am immature tank puts you at a disadvantage.
Those last two are REALLY important and both will diminish in importance with time.
So the slower you move through the tank's stages, the less amount of impact either disadvantage can have
As time goes on – this takes patience – tank maturity and your fish-keeper status will shift and become your strongest advantages.
Don't even try to build and stock your whole tank before that shift happens. Try to avoid as much building and stocking as your are able to until that shift happens. Space everything you plan to do out even more if you have to.
If you had a UV filter on hand I'd say to start running it. If the fish you have left are still mostly healthy, then it'll be work picking one up more than likely.
If you already had or could get a micron (diatom) filter like the Vortex or Marineland models out there, I'd be running that too.
Both will cut down on infectious agents in the water column while your fish recover some more.
There are some whole-tank treatments that may help with this too, but I'd avoid them if you're still thinking of the long-term for the reef itself. Stick with focused treatments like UV and micron that only impact what makes it into the filter.
What are you feeding the fish currently? And which fish are still around? (Be specific about each fish's condition if possible.)
In The Future
Pick only the healthiest fish.
Add them one at a time with a month or so in between from now on....not in groups....at least until the tank significantly matures.
(that's a lot easier if you're shopping at the LFS vs online)
Make sure your QT is homey, not cramped and prison-like.
It doesn't have to impress anyone though, it just has to be a basic, serviceable, functional fish-only system.
A minor chunk of live rock, a PVC part or two to act as a cave and enough plastic plants so the fish don't feel the need for the cave all the time, etc.Plan for a separate hospital tank if at all possible. Treating in-QT when the need arises is possible, but it complicates things....especially if you do have more than one fish in the QT, but even for a single fish.
dede
Active Member
I would say give yourself a break from the fish and focus on corals, that is what I did after so many losses. If you can catch all the fish then get them out and treat them, if not then just try to boost their immune system with good food. In the future you will have to get hardier fish if you cant leave the system fallow for ich.
I dont have a QT.. i just recently got new fish too.. i dont stress over a spot here and there.. i just try to not stress the fish out more than they already are..
then again.. all the recent fish i added are "easy" & "hardy"...
of course i dont want all my fish to get sick and die.. but if they do, i can just restock with something new and different..
can only rememeber of one time when my fish had ich and thats when started up a freshwater tank a long long time ago....
correct me if im wrong, but a fish can survive ich, right?? keep your hands out of the tank and feed them.. if they are eagerly eating they might survive it.
then again.. all the recent fish i added are "easy" & "hardy"...
of course i dont want all my fish to get sick and die.. but if they do, i can just restock with something new and different..
can only rememeber of one time when my fish had ich and thats when started up a freshwater tank a long long time ago....
correct me if im wrong, but a fish can survive ich, right?? keep your hands out of the tank and feed them.. if they are eagerly eating they might survive it.
+1 to velvet. Please see @Humblefish advisory below. Act fast!
Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease
I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.
In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas thetangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:
The short version:
* 5 minute freshwater dip
* Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:
1. Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
2. Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60minutes max, but remove the fishimmediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, facemask, eye protection, etc.)whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)
* After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
* While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
* Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.
The long-winded version:
I’d like to explain in more detail about what the above mentioned treatments accomplish:
Freshwater dip - This is very useful for removing most of the “surface parasites”. Noga (2000) and Noga & Levy (1995) bothreported that a single freshwater dip would remove 80-90% of the parasites. I thought that would be enough to moveon to copper or CP in a QT. However, the fish I treated with just a freshwater dipand then in-tank QT treatment continually died. Therefore I came to the conclusion a chemical bath was also needed before being moved into QT treatment (see below). Here is how you perform a freshwater dip:
Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt alittle tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.
Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also,tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes.
Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal.”
Acriflavine - This is a new drug (to me anyway), but it seems to have a lot of potential as a replacement for formalin. It has a broad range of effect, beingeffective against both protozoans and bacterial infections. The latter gives it an advantage over using formalin, because all those tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet have the potential to get infected. You can also leave a fish in acriflavine longer than formalin, because it is not as harsh on the fish. Dosage varies by the product you are using, but for straight acriflavine (Acriflavine-MS) use 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water for a bath solution.
Formalin - Cheap, effective and readily available; formalin can sometimes evenbe sourced from a vet or local pharmacy (37% Formaldehyde is what you’re looking for). However, the downsides are numerous: First, it can be very harsh - some fish cannot even survive in it the full 60 minutes. Formalin will quickly deplete oxygen from the water, so it’s important to aerate heavily for 30 minutes before and also during the bath treatment. The bath should be done in a large glass bowl/container or small aquarium, as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. Finally, formalin is a known carcinogen, so precautions must be taken when handling it. Prevent your skin from coming into contact with it by wearing waterproof gloves, and protect your face by wearing a face mask and eye protection.
Even though I lost the butterfly I had treated with formalin, I still wanted to include it as a chemical bath option. In the past, I have successfully treated clownfish with Brooklynella by using formalin and also know those who have been successful using it to treat velvet as well, so it is not without its merits. However, there is anecdotal evidence that some fish treated with formalin will suddenly stop eating at a later date. So, similar to cyanide poisoning. I’ve alsoread that many fish treated with formalin do not live past 18-24 months, possibly dying of cancer. However, when faced with velvet and if formalin is your only viable option, 18-24 months is a heck of a lot better than just letting the fish die in a matter of days or even hours. [emoji6]
Methylene Blue - May be added to the formalin bath only. It is a healing agent, useful for treating the tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet.
Chloroquine phosphate/copper - While all of the above will remove the vast majority of velvet on a fish, some will inevitably survive. Within 4 days the remaining trophonts will drop off the fish, then encyst, and usually 48-96 hours later (although it can take up to 20+ days depending upon the strain) release dinospores (free swimmers) seeking to reinfect fish. The presence of CP or copper at therapeutic levels kills the dinospores, effectively shielding your fish from reinfection. It is important to note that CP/copper does not eradicate any other stage of velvet, just dinospores. It has zero impact on the parasites on the fish; they must “weather the storm” until the trophonts fall off. This is why it is so important to do a freshwater dip and chemical bath beforehand, to reduce the number of parasites feeding on your fish’s body & gills. [emoji20]
As mentioned in “The short version”, if you only have one QT to work with leave the fish in CP or copper for one month before performing water changes/running carbon. This will ensure the fish has been protected from reinfection before removing the medication. However, if you can transfer the fish to a non-medicated holding tank (at least 10 feet away from the QT) for observation then you may do so just 10-14 days after CP/copper treatment has begun. So long as therapeutic levels were continuously maintained for the 10-14 day period. Transfer nothing but the fish, and even as little water as possible with the fish (like doing Tank Transfer Method). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring, as that is “the shield” protecting the fish from reinfection. Once transferred, yourfish should have a “clean slate” in his new environment and have left behind all the velvet problems in the QT. Observe for at least 2 weeks before declaring your fish to be velvet free!
Chloroquine is considered the treatment of choice for velvet, because you can go from zero to full therapeutic all in one dose, without negatively affecting the fish. This is not the case with copper, as some fish can be overly sensitive to it and sometimes stop eating or even die. But with velvet, that’s a risk you’re just going to have to take if copper is the only viable option. Also, with CP anything from 40-80mg/gal should get the job done where velvet is concerned. I just dosed at the high end for my experiment, because I saw no downside in doing so.
Wide spectrum antibiotic - Velvet does A LOT of damage to a fish’s skin & gills. The trophont sits on the skin’s surfaceand puts out small rhyzoids (root-like structures) into the skin of the hostwhere it absorbs nutrients directly from the fish’s skin. With all those tinywounds, the likelihood of infection is high. This is something I missed in my earlier experiments where the fish died. Therefore, I consider it prudent to preemptively treat with Kanaplexand/or Furan-2 to ward off any potential bacterial infections which might arise.
Final thoughts:
* You need to move with a sense of urgency when a fish has velvet.This is not the same as dealing with ich. A fish with velvet may have days or just hours to livewithout prompt treatment.
* A small percentage of fish are thought to be capable of building up a natural or temporary immunity to velvet (and perhaps other parasites as well). Natural immunity is less understood, but temporary immunity usually only lasts 6 months max. During that time the fish is still a carrier and capable of infecting other fish. Over the years I have noticed this trend: Clownfish, mandarins and other fish with thick slime coatsare often the only fish left standing following a velvet wipeout.
* Disease masking: There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that fish treated with a non-therapeutic level of copper will not show symptoms of ich, velvet, brook, etc. for weeks. This is why it can be dangerous to buy from LFS who treat their fish with copper but donot test daily to ensure it remainswithin the therapeutic range.
* The lifecycle of velvet varies according to strain. The trophonts, which feed and do all the damage, can remain on a fish for as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. Common sense dictates you are more likely to save a fish with velvet if it’s a “12 hour variant” than one which feeds on the fish for 4 consecutive days, since the medication will not kill the trophonts still on the fish.
* Even after completing the freshwater dip and chemical bath, you will still see tiny dots all over the fish. This is because the dots you see are not the actual parasites. Velvet, like ich, is invisible to the naked eye in allforms. The dots or “dust” you are seeing is actually excess mucous buildup around the tiny insertion points. It will take a few days for this to diminish.
* If you can’t get acriflavine or formalin right away, daily freshwater dips may buy you more time. However, I’ve neversaved a fish just by doing freshwater dips and then treating with copper or CP.
* As mentioned previously, velvet dinospores (free swimmers) can remain infective for up to 15 days. By contrast, ich theronts only remain active for 48 hours,with infectivity greatly reduced just 6 - 8 hours after it leaves the cyst. What this means is thatvelvet has a lot more time to seek out and attach to a fish host, which partially explains why a fish with velvet is often covered in it.
* Velvet doesn’t take much of a break. Velvet tomonts release free swimmers every 4 days (on average). As mentioned above, those free swimmers can hang around for up to 15 days looking for fish to infect. Ich tomonts only release theronts (free swimmers) every 2-4 weeks (on average), with at least one strain taking up to 72 days. Since the trophont (feeding stage) remains on the fish for 3-7 days before dropping off, a fish with ich gets some relief in-between bombardments.
* Velvet likes light. As a dinoflagellate, velvet tomonts and dinospores are both capable of using photosynthesis as a means of obtaining energy. So when a dinospore ruptures from its cyst, it propels upward (towards the light) by using whip-like appendages for locomotion. Therefore, top swimming fish are probably moreat risk than bottom dwellers. I highly suggest not using an aquarium light during treatment and also when running fallow for velvet (if possible in a fish only system).
* The study on aerosol transmission - which established the 10 foot rule - was done using velvet as the subject of the study. More info on that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292
Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease
I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.
In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas thetangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:
The short version:
* 5 minute freshwater dip
* Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:
1. Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
2. Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60minutes max, but remove the fishimmediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, facemask, eye protection, etc.)whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)
* After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
* While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
* Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.
The long-winded version:
I’d like to explain in more detail about what the above mentioned treatments accomplish:
Freshwater dip - This is very useful for removing most of the “surface parasites”. Noga (2000) and Noga & Levy (1995) bothreported that a single freshwater dip would remove 80-90% of the parasites. I thought that would be enough to moveon to copper or CP in a QT. However, the fish I treated with just a freshwater dipand then in-tank QT treatment continually died. Therefore I came to the conclusion a chemical bath was also needed before being moved into QT treatment (see below). Here is how you perform a freshwater dip:
Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt alittle tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.
Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also,tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes.
Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal.”
Acriflavine - This is a new drug (to me anyway), but it seems to have a lot of potential as a replacement for formalin. It has a broad range of effect, beingeffective against both protozoans and bacterial infections. The latter gives it an advantage over using formalin, because all those tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet have the potential to get infected. You can also leave a fish in acriflavine longer than formalin, because it is not as harsh on the fish. Dosage varies by the product you are using, but for straight acriflavine (Acriflavine-MS) use 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water for a bath solution.
Formalin - Cheap, effective and readily available; formalin can sometimes evenbe sourced from a vet or local pharmacy (37% Formaldehyde is what you’re looking for). However, the downsides are numerous: First, it can be very harsh - some fish cannot even survive in it the full 60 minutes. Formalin will quickly deplete oxygen from the water, so it’s important to aerate heavily for 30 minutes before and also during the bath treatment. The bath should be done in a large glass bowl/container or small aquarium, as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. Finally, formalin is a known carcinogen, so precautions must be taken when handling it. Prevent your skin from coming into contact with it by wearing waterproof gloves, and protect your face by wearing a face mask and eye protection.
Even though I lost the butterfly I had treated with formalin, I still wanted to include it as a chemical bath option. In the past, I have successfully treated clownfish with Brooklynella by using formalin and also know those who have been successful using it to treat velvet as well, so it is not without its merits. However, there is anecdotal evidence that some fish treated with formalin will suddenly stop eating at a later date. So, similar to cyanide poisoning. I’ve alsoread that many fish treated with formalin do not live past 18-24 months, possibly dying of cancer. However, when faced with velvet and if formalin is your only viable option, 18-24 months is a heck of a lot better than just letting the fish die in a matter of days or even hours. [emoji6]
Methylene Blue - May be added to the formalin bath only. It is a healing agent, useful for treating the tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet.
Chloroquine phosphate/copper - While all of the above will remove the vast majority of velvet on a fish, some will inevitably survive. Within 4 days the remaining trophonts will drop off the fish, then encyst, and usually 48-96 hours later (although it can take up to 20+ days depending upon the strain) release dinospores (free swimmers) seeking to reinfect fish. The presence of CP or copper at therapeutic levels kills the dinospores, effectively shielding your fish from reinfection. It is important to note that CP/copper does not eradicate any other stage of velvet, just dinospores. It has zero impact on the parasites on the fish; they must “weather the storm” until the trophonts fall off. This is why it is so important to do a freshwater dip and chemical bath beforehand, to reduce the number of parasites feeding on your fish’s body & gills. [emoji20]
As mentioned in “The short version”, if you only have one QT to work with leave the fish in CP or copper for one month before performing water changes/running carbon. This will ensure the fish has been protected from reinfection before removing the medication. However, if you can transfer the fish to a non-medicated holding tank (at least 10 feet away from the QT) for observation then you may do so just 10-14 days after CP/copper treatment has begun. So long as therapeutic levels were continuously maintained for the 10-14 day period. Transfer nothing but the fish, and even as little water as possible with the fish (like doing Tank Transfer Method). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring, as that is “the shield” protecting the fish from reinfection. Once transferred, yourfish should have a “clean slate” in his new environment and have left behind all the velvet problems in the QT. Observe for at least 2 weeks before declaring your fish to be velvet free!
Chloroquine is considered the treatment of choice for velvet, because you can go from zero to full therapeutic all in one dose, without negatively affecting the fish. This is not the case with copper, as some fish can be overly sensitive to it and sometimes stop eating or even die. But with velvet, that’s a risk you’re just going to have to take if copper is the only viable option. Also, with CP anything from 40-80mg/gal should get the job done where velvet is concerned. I just dosed at the high end for my experiment, because I saw no downside in doing so.
Wide spectrum antibiotic - Velvet does A LOT of damage to a fish’s skin & gills. The trophont sits on the skin’s surfaceand puts out small rhyzoids (root-like structures) into the skin of the hostwhere it absorbs nutrients directly from the fish’s skin. With all those tinywounds, the likelihood of infection is high. This is something I missed in my earlier experiments where the fish died. Therefore, I consider it prudent to preemptively treat with Kanaplexand/or Furan-2 to ward off any potential bacterial infections which might arise.
Final thoughts:
* You need to move with a sense of urgency when a fish has velvet.This is not the same as dealing with ich. A fish with velvet may have days or just hours to livewithout prompt treatment.
* A small percentage of fish are thought to be capable of building up a natural or temporary immunity to velvet (and perhaps other parasites as well). Natural immunity is less understood, but temporary immunity usually only lasts 6 months max. During that time the fish is still a carrier and capable of infecting other fish. Over the years I have noticed this trend: Clownfish, mandarins and other fish with thick slime coatsare often the only fish left standing following a velvet wipeout.
* Disease masking: There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that fish treated with a non-therapeutic level of copper will not show symptoms of ich, velvet, brook, etc. for weeks. This is why it can be dangerous to buy from LFS who treat their fish with copper but donot test daily to ensure it remainswithin the therapeutic range.
* The lifecycle of velvet varies according to strain. The trophonts, which feed and do all the damage, can remain on a fish for as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. Common sense dictates you are more likely to save a fish with velvet if it’s a “12 hour variant” than one which feeds on the fish for 4 consecutive days, since the medication will not kill the trophonts still on the fish.
* Even after completing the freshwater dip and chemical bath, you will still see tiny dots all over the fish. This is because the dots you see are not the actual parasites. Velvet, like ich, is invisible to the naked eye in allforms. The dots or “dust” you are seeing is actually excess mucous buildup around the tiny insertion points. It will take a few days for this to diminish.
* If you can’t get acriflavine or formalin right away, daily freshwater dips may buy you more time. However, I’ve neversaved a fish just by doing freshwater dips and then treating with copper or CP.
* As mentioned previously, velvet dinospores (free swimmers) can remain infective for up to 15 days. By contrast, ich theronts only remain active for 48 hours,with infectivity greatly reduced just 6 - 8 hours after it leaves the cyst. What this means is thatvelvet has a lot more time to seek out and attach to a fish host, which partially explains why a fish with velvet is often covered in it.
* Velvet doesn’t take much of a break. Velvet tomonts release free swimmers every 4 days (on average). As mentioned above, those free swimmers can hang around for up to 15 days looking for fish to infect. Ich tomonts only release theronts (free swimmers) every 2-4 weeks (on average), with at least one strain taking up to 72 days. Since the trophont (feeding stage) remains on the fish for 3-7 days before dropping off, a fish with ich gets some relief in-between bombardments.
* Velvet likes light. As a dinoflagellate, velvet tomonts and dinospores are both capable of using photosynthesis as a means of obtaining energy. So when a dinospore ruptures from its cyst, it propels upward (towards the light) by using whip-like appendages for locomotion. Therefore, top swimming fish are probably moreat risk than bottom dwellers. I highly suggest not using an aquarium light during treatment and also when running fallow for velvet (if possible in a fish only system).
* The study on aerosol transmission - which established the 10 foot rule - was done using velvet as the subject of the study. More info on that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292
mcarroll
10K Club member
I'd like to read more about this....do you know where this info came from?
Even dino's that are considered photsynthetic don't really "like light" other than extremely dim light. They mat up into a mucosy cocoon under even moderate reef tank lighting to get protection from the light. Same reason they are usually found as epiphytes on macro algae....they get (among other things) the perfect amount of shaded light.
Further, even dino's that are considered photosynthetic are almost all being reconsidered as mixotrophic now.
Parasitic dino's AFAIK are all obligate parasites, which means they don't have another option.
So now you have me wondering: Could parasitic dino's also be mixotrophic rather than obligately parasitic?
Any degree of affirmation would cast some serious shade (pun intended) on current QT recommendations....as well as making available a whole range of new options.
I suggest Google Scholaring to find the PDF for that article – the conclusions are being portrayed quite differently than they were in the original article. (I suspect the article was based only on the Abstract and didn't have all the information available. I don't remember the PDF being available back when the link you posted was published.)
In the actual experiment in the original article, only conditions that simulated an open pond under very high wind and very high aspiration were able to transmit dinospores a significant distance. (their third set of test results) Those conditions were of-interest to the study because those are the dominant conditions for food aquaculture.
Home- and tank-like conditions were also tested in the study (first set of test results), but were unable to spread dinospores at all.
..that seems worth repeating..
Home- and tank-like conditions were also tested in the study, but were unable to spread dinospores at all.
I laughed when I saw the equipment it took for them to actually spread dinospores....in the second set of results they had to force-atomize the dino-laden water into the air from a pressurized garden sprayer.
I don't even know anyone who uses a naked airstone in their tank. Let alone something like a pressurized garden sprayer.
roberthu526
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Just go Hypo in your display. Make sure you keep it in Hypo for 30 full days and raise salinity slowly. Just don’t add new fish in the future.
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