HELP NEEDED

[newreefer1987]

Hi all, I'll apologise in advance as this might be a long post just to give the info I think you will need in order to help....

So I got my fluval evo 52l a couple of weeks back, got 3.6kg of live rock along with some dry rock and crushed coral for the bed. I have the stock pump, the ps2 skimmer and a 50 watt heater. The filter is using the stock items (carbon and bio balls)

So positioned everything how I wanted it and added the water from my lfs.

Left everything running for the rest of the day, and the next day started seeing loads of stuff popping out of the rocks, there are a load of bristle worms some pods spoinoid worms and some sort of crab (he's yet to totally come out the hole he's in yet to get a proper id)

Tested the water and everything was fine on the second day.... my lfs had said when I picked the water up that I could add a couple of clownfish a couple of days after setting it up, as the live rock was fully cured, this is where the fun begins!

So carried on testing daily and ammonia was rising, nitrites were still 0 and nitrates around 20 and the ph was between 8 and 8.2.

I decided to dose with ammo lock to stop the ammonia being toxic to the fish... I have only been feeding the fish a very small amount every other day.

Fast forward a week, and ammonia even higher, so speak to lfs and advised to do a 10% water change and increase the amount of biofilter in the sump. I do this and soak the biofilter in the water I have taken out, incase there was any dust from sitting on shelf.
Test the parameters again and the ammonia is now sitting at 4, got some more advice and they said my tank isnt cycling properly and told me to start dosing with fluval cycle. To help increase the bacterial load to decrease the ammonia. Got up this morning around 16 hours after dosing and tested the water, ammonia has jumped between 4 and 8 nitrites 0 and nitrates are at 20. Ph has dropped as well to around 8.

Now one more thing to add, before I dosed with fluval cycle the water had gone really cloudy.

I've read that this could be a bacterial bloom and this could be causing the ammonia to spike because of the rapid increase to the bacterial load.

What can I do!? Do I carry on with the last dose of cycle tomorrow? Do I need to a big water change? Do i just leave alone??

Sorry again for the long post but trying to cover all questions you might have in one post, and I realise I've probably rushed into the things with the 2 clownfish but was going off the advice of my lfs...

One final thing to add, is that both fish seem completely fine a week on after adding them, no signs of possible ammonia poisoning etc, oh and I am part way through the diatoms bloom

 

[Retro Reefer]

Welcome to R2R! Probably the best thing you can do at this point is frequent water changes.. take your time and thoroughly research everything you want to do or add to your tank, Nothing good happens quickly in reefing as you have already found out the hard way.

 

[newreefer1987]

Welcome to R2R! Probably the best thing you can do at this point is frequent water changes.. take your time and thoroughly research everything you want to do or add to your tank, Nothing good happens quickly in reefing as you have already found out the hard way.

Thanks for the welcome, I've been told not to use ammolock anymore and do 10% water change each week to dilute the ammolock.

He agreed though that the fish look fine so doesn't make sense if the ammonia was that high that the fish should show some sign of being I'll

 

[Sierra_Bravo]

I'd perform larger water changes to get the ammonia down as quickly as possible, to zero ultimately but at least under .2ppm as quickly as possible now. If you have cloudy water add an airstone and pump to make sure the water is well oxygenated until it clears back up.

You can monitor the ammonia easier for the time being until you're cycled using one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-001001-Ammonia-Alert/dp/B000255R5G



.

 

[newreefer1987]

I'd perform larger water changes to get the ammonia down as quickly as possible, to zero ultimately but at least under 2ppm as quickly as possible now. If you have cloudy water add an airstone and pump to make sure the water is well oxygenated until it clears back up.

You can monitor the ammonia easier for the time being until you're cycled using one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-001001-Ammonia-Alert/dp/B000255R5G



.

Lfs has told me to just do 10%.... I would of thought like your saying if the ammo lock was that bad I would have to do water changes daily to get rid of it?

 

[MamaLovesHerReefTank]

I'm no expert but I would do daily not weekly water changes until ammonia is 0. Don't add any more livestock until your ammonia stays down.

 

[newreefer1987]

I'm no expert but I would do daily not weekly water changes until ammonia is 0. Don't add any more livestock until your ammonia stays down.

This is exactly what I was thinking.... but they've said just weekly still....

 

[Sierra_Bravo]

Lfs has told me to just do 10%.... I would of thought like your saying if the ammo lock was that bad I would have to do water changes daily to get rid of it?

I missed the "each week" part in your original message. 10% each week would be correct once your tank is cycled and steady. However, in my opinion right now you need to have a sense of urgency in reducing the ammonia levels. Clownfish are hardy, but any ammonia in the water is likely damaging their gills and if you stay at levels of 4ppm they won't last. I'd do 40% now and continue to do large water changes until you maintain zero ammonia.

Read this great article on cycling:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cycling-an-aquarium.306554/

 

[Sierra_Bravo]

Also: Here's an article written by Randy Holmes-Farley on ammonia and its effects: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

 

[ScooterV]

Thanks for the welcome, I've been told not to use ammolock anymore and do 10% water change each week to dilute the ammolock.

He agreed though that the fish look fine so doesn't make sense if the ammonia was that high that the fish should show some sign of being I'll

I'm not sure what chemical Ammo Lock uses, but just like all the others in Randy's article linked above the resulting compound still tests as ammonia on many/most test kits. It makes sense that the fish still appear ok, even with the kit testing high, because it has largely been detoxified. His article also says the resulting compound of some can continue to be broken down by bacteria.

My concern would be, even if detoxified, that would still have been high ammonia. If it keeps spiking, and without the ammo lock, it will be toxic. I think I'd continue the ammo lock, but keep doing water changes to bring down both the toxic and total amounts until the test level falls or you have an alert badge that can at least monitor the toxic levels.

 

[Flexin]

Not all LFS are reputable. Sometimes it's had to find a good one and this one seems extremely questionable. This one either does not know what it's doing or, and this is where I'm leaning, they already set you up to fail which will result in more money spent. Adding more bioballs does nothing instantly and should never be presented as an immediate fix. It can take a month or more just for the beneficial bacteria to form and that's if you add bacteria to the water. If they were going to have you cycle with an additive, you should have started out that way. I would find another LFS, and if you don't have one, you are better off dealing with reputable vendors here.

Follow the directions on the bottle, I've never used fluval cycle but have used other products to assist with the cycle. They normally require a water change. You may have to do this a few times until the tank stabilizes. I once chased cycles with stability but had to do it a few times for over a month.

Sorry to hear you are having problems out of the gate. As others mentioned, nothing good happens fast in this hobby. Anything that promotes a quick fix normally has another negative impact. Good luck and hope it works out.

 

[Flexin]

Fluval cycle will help convert the ammonia. I would not use ammonia lock and the cycle product. Personally I would ditch the lock and keep going with fluvial cycle and use as directed. As I mentioned above, you may have to do it a few times meaning if it says do it for 7 days, you may wait a day or two between, and if you have antoher ammonia spike, you can start again (and I believe the directions will have you do a water change at the end X days.)

 

[ScooterV]

Fluval cycle will help convert the ammonia. I would not use ammonia lock and the cycle product. Personally I would ditch the lock and keep going with fluvial cycle and use as directed. As I mentioned above, you may have to do it a few times meaning if it says do it for 7 days, you may wait a day or two between, and if you have antoher ammonia spike, you can start again (and I believe the directions will have you do a water change at the end X days.)

That works great for a cycle, but he already has fish in it. After using Ammo Lock he'll also have no way to tell how much of what he is testing is actually toxic. It would take at least an initial very large water change to get the test down to acceptable levels, and then monitor closely while waiting on any cycle product. But, if there is still rapid die off from the rock and it spikes those fish are at risk. I don't think 10% a day is likely to be near enough from that starting point. Fluval Cycle and an alert badge would be great though.

 

[newreefer1987]

That works great for a cycle, but he already has fish in it. After using Ammo Lock he'll also have no way to tell how much of what he is testing is actually toxic. It would take at least an initial very large water change to get the test down to acceptable levels, and then monitor closely while waiting on any cycle product. But, if there is still rapid die off from the rock and it spikes those fish are at risk. I don't think 10% a day is likely to be near enough from that starting point. Fluval Cycle and an alert badge would be great though.

When I go to get the water will ask for more and do a bigger water change

 

[Sierra_Bravo]

When I go to get the water will ask for more and do a bigger water change

Keep posting updates and folks here will chime in and offer their advice to help guide you through. Don't worry, this is all part of the learning process of getting started and there are lots of folks here happy to help get you over the hump.

Welcome to the R2R family!

 

[newreefer1987]

Keep posting updates and folks here will chime in and offer their advice to help guide you through. Don't worry, this is all part of the learning process of getting started and there are lots of folks here happy to help get you over the hump.

Welcome to the R2R family!

Thanks everyone.... felt like a right idiot in the shop. I don't think that I will be allowed to do a bigger water change by the lfs but will ask. I've ordered a seachem test kit for ammonia as I've been told they split the good and the bad ammonia?

 

[Flexin]

That works great for a cycle, but he already has fish in it. After using Ammo Lock he'll also have no way to tell how much of what he is testing is actually toxic. It would take at least an initial very large water change to get the test down to acceptable levels, and then monitor closely while waiting on any cycle product. But, if there is still rapid die off from the rock and it spikes those fish are at risk. I don't think 10% a day is likely to be near enough from that starting point. Fluval Cycle and an alert badge would be great though.

Hi Scooter, people use these products while fish are there because it allows the tank to process the waste since they don't have it naturally (in an uncycled tank or a tank experiencing a cycle). These products can be used with fish in the system and yes it's a good idea to monitor it just in case you have to do it again until the tank can process on it's own. It allows the tank to mature faster and processes the waste. And I agree, it would be good to start off with a decent water change and then use the product as directed. I've used Stability a number of times and know others who have and it works. But, the tank still needs time to mature.

 

[newreefer1987]

Hi Scooter, people use these products while fish are there because it allows the tank to process the waste since they don't have it naturally (in an uncycled tank or a tank experiencing a cycle). These products can be used with fish in the system and yes it's a good idea to monitor it just in case you have to do it again until the tank can process on it's own. It allows the tank to mature faster and processes the waste. And I agree, it would be good to start off with a decent water change and then use the product as directed. I've used Stability a number of times and know others who have and it works. But, the tank still needs time to mature.

So what do I do? Go back tomorrow and say that I feel like I need to do a substantial water change daily?

 

[Flexin]

Post the directions on the back of the fluvial cycle so I can see it please

 

[newreefer1987]

Post the directions on the back of the fluvial cycle so I can see it please

It says to add 40ml per 25l on day one.... 10ml per 25l on day two and 10ml per 25l on day three