Help sump question!

[aaron23]

hi guys,
I went with a sump for my 60 cube. 1" drain is supposed to be 600 gph. My return pump does 600 gph. Why is it pushing so much more water back into the tank and barely any drain water is coming back down.

This is a deep blue tank the drain stand pipes are fixed... not sure what I'm doing wrong

 

[Joey waid]

You may need to add more water to the system? Or slow the return down.

 

[aaron23]

I don't want to slow the return. Adding more water may overflow my sump :/

 

[aaron23]

I don't understand why it's not even close to matching the drain gph to the pump gph

 

[twpilot]

I have a valve on return and supply. That really helps control it. I have a mag 7

 

[aaron23]

@twpilot i decided not to have a drain valve because I want nothing obstructing it. I only have a valve on the return

 

[jenreefer]

hi guys,
I went with a sump for my 60 cube. 1" drain is supposed to be 600 gph. My return pump does 600 gph. Why is it pushing so much more water back into the tank and barely any drain water is coming back down.

This is a deep blue tank the drain stand pipes are fixed... not sure what I'm doing wrong

What is diameter of return line? In my 60 cube, have 1 inch drain and 1/2 inch return line. I have not had any issues using my pump at full speed. Pictures would help also to see how water is leaving the tank and what obstacles it is hitting.

 

[Flippers4pups]

If your drain line from your overflow box isn't a straight line into the sump, has elbows, it could have air pockets restricting flow.

If your exit at the sump is under water and your overflow bulkheads are completely or nearly under water, there could be pressure in the drain line restricting flow.

Don't place a valve on your return line, this can cause wear on the return pump. Instead tee off the return line and plumb a waste line with a ball valve off the tee back into the sump. Kind of like a manifold. This way you can adjust the flow into the DT by wasting off excess flow back into the sump. This won't place back pressure on the return pump. This will allow you to dial your flow into the DT and adjust your water level in the DT.

Hope this helps.

 

[Reef Nerd]

What is diameter of return line? In my 60 cube, have 1 inch drain and 1/2 inch return line. I have not had any issues using my pump at full speed. Pictures would help also to see how water is leaving the tank and what obstacles it

What is diameter of return line? In my 60 cube, have 1 inch drain and 1/2 inch return line. I have not had any issues using my pump at full speed. Pictures would help also to see how water is leaving the tank and what obstacles it is hitting.

You have to remember if the pump is rated at 600 gallons per hour at what height is that because if the height is measured at 6 feet and your return line is only 4 feet you have increased the gallons per hour a rule of thumb I like to use from the sump to the display tank is only 3/4 to 1/2 of the return from the display tank to the sump at actual height meaning you would only want a pump capable of 3 to 400 gallons per hour at 4 feet

 

[Flippers4pups]

Like I said, if the return pump is too much for the overflow box to handle, tee off the return line back into the sump using a ball valve to control the flow into the sump, which in turn will adjust the flow into the DT. Problem solved.

 

[mcarroll]

I don't understand why it's not even close to matching the drain gph to the pump gph

It just doesn't work like that – you don't "match" the numbers. :P

First, both numbers are nominal ratings. Ideal maximums, if you will. Subject to actual reality at time of installation. ;)

You have to include some info about your plumbing to get an accurate estimate of the actual flow you wold get from a particular pump in a particular installation.

Can you use something like a bucket and a stopwatch to measure your flow now – either at the drain or return outlet; whichever is easier to get to.

1. Time how long it takes to fill a container that will work.
2. Measure how much the container holds.
3. "how much" / "time" you can convert into the actual GPH flowing through your system. :)

Here are the biggies for future planning – you need to know these before setting your expectations for any pump:

• How many feet does the plumbing have to go to get from the sump to the top of the return? (only the vertical)
• How many feet is the total plumbing run from the sump to the retrun? (vertical as well as horizontal)
• How many 90º bends will be required to get there? (Can two 45º bends or a special long-radius 90º be used instead?)
• Include any other significant features such as any valves or tees, but hopefully these items above, plus an entrance and an exit, about describes it.
• Simple is better.

The thread is still shy on detals....we need all of the above....plus what pump do you have?

Photos of the tank and plumbing would help too.

But here's what I can tell you so far:

• 1/2" plumbing is going to be incredibly restrictive, even at the low flow rates you need for a 60 gallon tank.
• A 60 gallon tank only requires about 120GPH to 240GPH through the return.
• Beyond 300GPH is beyond overkill, does little for you, and can actually cause problems similar to what you're seeing, as well as noise and bubble issues.
• If your return is 4' high, 5' total, has one 90º fitting, and you have a Quiet One 2200 pump (a "600 GPH" pump), you should be getting 367 GPH.
• If you were to switch up to 1" plumbing for your return, the same pump could deliver about 400 GPH. About a 10% bump.
• The real bonus from knowing this and using the "right-sized pump" is that you could use a much smaller pump which:
  • might cost 10%-20% less
  • will probably use about 50% less power

The details from me estimating your actual head loss, from the On-Line Friction Piping Loss calculator...I made assumptions you might have to correct to get good information. :) We can help. :)

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.56 Head Loss (ft): 1.3
Line Number:
Date: 12/3/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 4
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.622
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 4.23
Reynolds Number: 20847
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.026
Overall K: 4.58
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.06 Head Loss (ft): 0.1
Line Number:
Date: 12/3/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 4
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 1.49
Reynolds Number: 12361
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.03
Overall K: 3.65
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1​

Don't place a valve on your return line, this can cause wear on the return pump

This might be true for some kinds of pump, but it's not true for any of the kinds used as return pumps on aquariums.

Still, I'm not a fan of using valves to "dial in" a return.

Although valving a pump back will reduce power consumption, using the right-sized pump in the first place is a better way to reduce power consumption a lot more.

Plus the pump then usually costs less and takes up less space and, again, uses less power. Bonuses across the board! :)

 

[Flippers4pups]

It just doesn't work like that – you don't "match" the numbers. :p

First, both numbers are nominal ratings. Ideal maximums, if you will. Subject to actual reality at time of installation. ;)

You have to include some info about your plumbing to get an accurate estimate of the actual flow you wold get from a particular pump in a particular installation.

Can you use something like a bucket and a stopwatch to measure your flow now – either at the drain or return outlet; whichever is easier to get to.

1. Time how long it takes to fill a container that will work.
2. Measure how much the container holds.
3. "how much" / "time" you can convert into the actual GPH flowing through your system. :)

Here are the biggies for future planning – you need to know these before setting your expectations for any pump:

• How many feet does the plumbing have to go to get from the sump to the top of the return? (only the vertical)
• How many feet is the total plumbing run from the sump to the retrun? (vertical as well as horizontal)
• How many 90º bends will be required to get there? (Can two 45º bends or a special long-radius 90º be used instead?)
• Include any other significant features such as any valves or tees, but hopefully these items above, plus an entrance and an exit, about describes it.
• Simple is better.

The thread is still shy on detals....we need all of the above....plus what pump do you have?

Photos of the tank and plumbing would help too.

But here's what I can tell you so far:

• 1/2" plumbing is going to be incredibly restrictive, even at the low flow rates you need for a 60 gallon tank.
• A 60 gallon tank only requires about 120GPH to 240GPH through the return.
• Beyond 300GPH is beyond overkill, does little for you, and can actually cause problems similar to what you're seeing, as well as noise and bubble issues.
• If your return is 4' high, 5' total, has one 90º fitting, and you have a Quiet One 2200 pump (a "600 GPH" pump), you should be getting 367 GPH.
• If you were to switch up to 1" plumbing for your return, the same pump could deliver about 400 GPH. About a 10% bump.
• The real bonus from knowing this and using the "right-sized pump" is that you could use a much smaller pump which:
  • might cost 10%-20% less
  • will probably use about 50% less power

The details from me estimating your actual head loss, from the On-Line Friction Piping Loss calculator...I made assumptions you might have to correct to get good information. :) We can help. :)

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.56 Head Loss (ft): 1.3
Line Number:
Date: 12/3/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 4
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.622
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 4.23
Reynolds Number: 20847
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.026
Overall K: 4.58
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.06 Head Loss (ft): 0.1
Line Number:
Date: 12/3/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 4
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 1.49
Reynolds Number: 12361
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.03
Overall K: 3.65
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1​

This might be true for some kinds of pump, but it's not true for any of the kinds used as return pumps on aquariums.

Still, I'm not a fan of using valves to "dial in" a return.

Although valving a pump back will reduce power consumption, using the right-sized pump in the first place is a better way to reduce power consumption a lot more.

Plus the pump then usually costs less and takes up less space and, again, uses less power. Bonuses across the board! :)

I would agree with you on the wear issue if it's a magnetic drive pump, iwaki, Panworld......If it's a impeller pump such as a quiet one, I would have to disagree with you. Of course it depends on how much it's throttled back. Wear could be had on the impeller shaft and shaft bearings. I've seen this first hand when this type has been throttled back too much over the course of years. Once again, it depends on how much it's valved.

 

[aaron23]

Wow Lol I thought matching numbers was all it took....

I'm using a sicce syncra 3.5 660 gph @ 0 head pressure. I'd say it is about 3 vertical ft from return pump to bulkhead. As seen from the pictures there are no 90's it's just rigid tubing. The drains go into 2 socks then into the skimmer chamber and into the return.

Drain is 1" and return is 3/4".

Your input is much appreciated thanks for the info so far!

 

[jenreefer]

Wow Lol I thought matching numbers was all it took....

I'm using a sicce syncra 3.5 660 gph @ 0 head pressure. I'd say it is about 3 vertical ft from return pump to bulkhead. As seen from the pictures there are no 90's it's just rigid tubing. The drains go into 2 socks then into the skimmer chamber and into the return.

Drain is 1" and return is 3/4".

Your input is much appreciated thanks for the info so far!

I did not see the pics, where are they?

 

[aaron23]

I did not see the pics, where are they?

Oops lol still awake 24 hours strong since tank transfer think I'll pass out very shortly :)

sump is a skimz up18

 

[aaron23]

Assistance would be greatly appreciated!

It just doesn't work like that – you don't "match" the numbers. :p

First, both numbers are nominal ratings. Ideal maximums, if you will. Subject to actual reality at time of installation. ;)

You have to include some info about your plumbing to get an accurate estimate of the actual flow you wold get from a particular pump in a particular installation.

Can you use something like a bucket and a stopwatch to measure your flow now – either at the drain or return outlet; whichever is easier to get to.

1. Time how long it takes to fill a container that will work.
2. Measure how much the container holds.
3. "how much" / "time" you can convert into the actual GPH flowing through your system. :)

Here are the biggies for future planning – you need to know these before setting your expectations for any pump:

• How many feet does the plumbing have to go to get from the sump to the top of the return? (only the vertical)
• How many feet is the total plumbing run from the sump to the retrun? (vertical as well as horizontal)
• How many 90º bends will be required to get there? (Can two 45º bends or a special long-radius 90º be used instead?)
• Include any other significant features such as any valves or tees, but hopefully these items above, plus an entrance and an exit, about describes it.
• Simple is better.

The thread is still shy on detals....we need all of the above....plus what pump do you have?

Photos of the tank and plumbing would help too.

But here's what I can tell you so far:

• 1/2" plumbing is going to be incredibly restrictive, even at the low flow rates you need for a 60 gallon tank.
• A 60 gallon tank only requires about 120GPH to 240GPH through the return.
• Beyond 300GPH is beyond overkill, does little for you, and can actually cause problems similar to what you're seeing, as well as noise and bubble issues.
• If your return is 4' high, 5' total, has one 90º fitting, and you have a Quiet One 2200 pump (a "600 GPH" pump), you should be getting 367 GPH.
• If you were to switch up to 1" plumbing for your return, the same pump could deliver about 400 GPH. About a 10% bump.
• The real bonus from knowing this and using the "right-sized pump" is that you could use a much smaller pump which:
  • might cost 10%-20% less
  • will probably use about 50% less power

The details from me estimating your actual head loss, from the On-Line Friction Piping Loss calculator...I made assumptions you might have to correct to get good information. :) We can help. :)

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.56 Head Loss (ft): 1.3
Line Number:
Date: 12/3/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 4
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.622
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 4.23
Reynolds Number: 20847
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.026
Overall K: 4.58
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.06 Head Loss (ft): 0.1
Line Number:
Date: 12/3/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 4
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 1.49
Reynolds Number: 12361
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.03
Overall K: 3.65
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1​

This might be true for some kinds of pump, but it's not true for any of the kinds used as return pumps on aquariums.

Still, I'm not a fan of using valves to "dial in" a return.

Although valving a pump back will reduce power consumption, using the right-sized pump in the first place is a better way to reduce power consumption a lot more.

Plus the pump then usually costs less and takes up less space and, again, uses less power. Bonuses across the board! :)

@mcarroll just wow thank you for being so specific. Along with details in previous post I think the head prsssure is more than 3ft from the pump to the top of the return pipe I think would be 3 plus the pipe which is 2 so 5ft vertical?

I am getting a lot of noise from the drain and the pump is too strong. Wish I realized this earlier I thought you could match the numbers lol. Could you provide insigh as to how many gph pump I could use on full blast without having to restrict the pump with a ball valve?

Thank you in advance I got most of what you said but best is to calculate how much is draining into a bucket first? Use that calculation to obtain how much gph pump I should use?

And to further clarify no 90 elbows just flex simple tubing for the drain and return and the return has one ballvalve.

Thank you!

 

[mcarroll]

What pumps do you have locally available?

 

[aaron23]

I'd just order one from BRS and use this one restricted with ball valve in the meantime. Which sicce should I get? 400/500 gph?

 

[scoopsthedog]

Assistance would be greatly appreciated!

@mcarroll just wow thank you for being so specific. Along with details in previous post I think the head prsssure is more than 3ft from the pump to the top of the return pipe I think would be 3 plus the pipe which is 2 so 5ft vertical?

I am getting a lot of noise from the drain and the pump is too strong. Wish I realized this earlier I thought you could match the numbers lol. Could you provide insigh as to how many gph pump I could use on full blast without having to restrict the pump with a ball valve?

Thank you in advance I got most of what you said but best is to calculate how much is draining into a bucket first? Use that calculation to obtain how much gph pump I should use?

And to further clarify no 90 elbows just flex simple tubing for the drain and return and the return has one ballvalve.

Thank you!

The best advice I saw was build an extra tube to drain back into the sump if the GPH is pushing too much back in from the return.

 

[ReeferDave01]

I am going from my 60 gallon tank I've had for couple years to main tank 225g, refugium 60g cube with 40g sump that will support main tank and fuge. Main tank and fuge will be side by side. I have vectra m1 pumping main tank. I just bought jebao DC-6000 to return flow to fuge. I have a valve that I control between fuge and chiller. I need slow flow to fuge and this diverts most of the flow to the chiller and then back to sump