Help with diatoms

[ajhudson15]

Needing some help with getting rid of these dinos, Tank was set up at the end of July using live rock from my local fish store that has been going for years. Sand was a bag of live sand. Tank was filled up and bacteria was added just to be safe. Nitrate levels were close to zero, but phosphate was around .05. I have raised my nitrate up to around five, but my diatoms are not getting any better, even if I do a water change and siphon them directly out of the tank, they just come back and cover the sand. I haven’t really noticed too much on any rocks or coral, but it is starting to coat my macro algae in the morning before the lights come on. It isn’t as bad, but after an hour or so of the lights be on, it looks worse. Any suggestions

 

[ajhudson15]

 

[ajhudson15]

The tank is a 30 gallon all-in-one cube with a return pump turned all the way up and a little mini power head down on the other side to help keep some flow moving

 

[EnterName]

Those are dinoflagellates, not diatoms. Diatoms are like dust on the substrate. Dinoflagellates produce this slimiy mucilage.

Both images show diatoms:

 

[ajhudson15]

Those are dinoflagellates, not diatoms. Diatoms are like dust on the substrate. Dinoflagellates produce this slimiy mucilage.

Both images show diatoms:

My apologies I totally meant dinos

 

[slingfox]

Agreed with @EnterName that it looks like you are dealing with Dino’s. This is a very common issue with new tanks so not at all surprising. There are many threads on this board on how to deal with Dino’s. It can be a challenge but keep at it and the tank will eventually stabilize.

 

[ajhudson15]

Agreed with @EnterName that it looks like you are dealing with Dino’s. This is a very common issue with new tanks so not at all surprising. There are many threads on this board on how to deal with Dino’s. It can be a challenge but keep at it and the tank will eventually stabilize.

Definitely meant to type dinos. I was hoping I started with enough already cycled live rock that I wouldn’t have this problem. I started another tank 3 weeks before this one everything from the same place and it’s beautiful with no algae whatsoever

 

[EnterName]

These things happen

It's certainly a bit less common using live rock/sand, but there is still a lot of new surface area that dinos can claim. Manual removal, and nutrient control will certainly help even though the issue often resolves itself after some time.

Many people associate dinoflagellates with "low" nutrient levels. In my opinion we haven't really settled if nutrient levels below the detection limits of our test kits are triggering dinos or if the dino growth just takes up all nutrients. They certainly have get nitrogen and phosphorus from somewhere to grow.

Anyway, if you want to try nutrient dosing, I suggest the following DIY solutions as they are far cheaper than pre-mixed solutions from the store:

• Ammonia dosing
• Nitrate dosing
• Phosphate dosing

Ammonia and nitrate dosing are very similar as they both supply nitrogen so you should only do one at a time. Ammonia is preferred, but I have heard (and also observed myself) that ammonia dosing didn't help against dinos while nitrate dosing did. It's odd, and I don't have much of an explanation besides nitrate requiring more "work" for dinos to access the nitrogen.

 

[ajhudson15]

I have sodium nitrate solution mixed up already. Phosphates I haven’t had to dose.

 

[EnterName]

I have sodium nitrate solution mixed up already. Phosphates I haven’t had to dose.

What are you testing phosphates with?
The Hanna Checker ULR Phosphate has an accuracy of "±0.02ppm ± 5% of reading", so "0.05ppm" could be anything from 0.0275ppm to 0.0725ppm. This is all above the levels found in natural coral reefs but for "reef tanks" this would be considered low by many people during dinoflagellate outbreaks. I personally keep my phosphate very close to those levels as well, but I'm consistently growing dinos (in much smaller numbers) on purpose

 

[ajhudson15]

Mine with the Hanna checker. My other tank always reads 0.06-0.08 and is at the perfect balance. Obviously not all tanks are the same but I at least figured with the rock sand and water coming from the same place that it would have set up the same lol

 

[EnterName]

Mine with the Hanna checker. My other tank always reads 0.06-0.08 and is at the perfect balance. Obviously not all tanks are the same but I at least figured with the rock sand and water coming from the same place that it would have set up the same lol

I mean you are pretty close to 0.06 - 0.08 with 0.05.
Maybe the dinos are consuming the other 0.01 - 0.03ppm + your new live sand.

To be honest, when I'm trying to grow a different dinoflagellate or diatom variety for my thread, I just play around with nutrients. Up, down, doesn't matter too much. Most people will prefer "up", but I don't think this is the only option, it probably depends on other potentially available nutrient sources.
People seem to forget that organics can be cleaved with enzymes that allows all sorts of organisms to access nitrogen and phosphorus through sources we can't detect with our tests. I would start with nitrate dosing and a tiny bit of phosphate just to see if it helps. To me it's a bit counter-intuitive that dosing nutrients gets rid of dinos but it seems to be working for many, so why not give it a try?

 

[ajhudson15]

Mine with the Hanna checker. My other tank always reads 0.06-0.08 and is at the perfect balance. Obviously not all tanks are the same but I at least figured with the rock sand and water coming from the same place that it would have set up the same lol

I mean you are pretty close to 0.06 - 0.08 with 0.05.
Maybe the dinos are consuming the other 0.01 - 0.03ppm + your new live sand.

To be honest, when I'm trying to grow a different dinoflagellate or diatom variety for my thread, I just play around with nutrients. Up, down, doesn't matter too much. Most people will prefer "up", but I don't think this is the only option, it probably depends on other potentially available nutrient sources.
People seem to forget that organics can be cleaved with enzymes that allows all sorts of organisms to access nitrogen and phosphorus through sources we can't detect with our tests. I would start with nitrate dosing and a tiny bit of phosphate just to see if it helps. To me it's a bit counter-intuitive that dosing nutrients gets rid of dinos but it seems to be working for many, so why not give it a try?

And that’s why I was asking. Raising the nutrients does seem odd since you would think it feeds them.

Same reason I’ve thought about asking about the bubble bath dip. It claimed to get rid of these algae’s and at the same time helps lower phosphates and nitrates. You would think that also is counterintuitive

 

[EnterName]

And that’s why I was asking. Raising the nutrients does seem odd since you would think it feeds them.

Same reason I’ve thought about asking about the bubble bath dip. It claimed to get rid of these algae’s and at the same time helps lower phosphates and nitrates. You would think that also is counterintuitive

My current theory is that you are changing the microbiome/periphyton by changing nutrient levels.

When I change nutrient levels in my tank, I see a change in the diatom species and also the dinoflagellates. If you show me the diatoms that are currently dominant in my tank, I can tell you what kind of dinoflagellate cells you will find This is just my tank, but maybe it applies to others as well. Until I can verify this somehow, it's just a theory.

However, we already know that too much nitrogen under low phosphate levels causes zooxanthellae to reproduce too fast and then starve from a lack of phosphate. Zooxanthellae are also dinoflagellates, just that they are living in our corals. Maybe something similar happens to the benthic dinoflagellates that cause trouble in our tanks?