Herbie vs Bean Animal, is bean animal worth it?

[Flatlandreefer]

I am getting ready to convert my IM lagoon 25 from an AIO set up to a sump configuration. This tank is going to sit in my living room on the main floor of my home and I am going to plumb it into a large sump located in my basement.

I am trying to decide if a Bean Animal is necessary. I really like the extra safety of having three pipes with the bean animal design but this also means 4 pipes going through the wall if you include my return line. Also I am going to have to drill 4 holes in the glass vs 3.

Any way, what is everybody's experience with these two types of overflows, what do most people use? Any big horror stories with the herbie style?

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

People always seem to stress about this, it really makes very little difference either way IME. I always choose to go the easiest and most simple method which is a single stand pipe of appropriate length topped off with a Maggie Muffler. Quiet, simple. Also, go with a low flow pump for the return, shoot for only 4-6x turnover after head loss. The whole system will be much quieter and its a more efficient use of energy to have the majority of the flow provided by a small pump inside the tank.

 

[ca1ore]

The bean is unquestionably superior ….. though in most cases perhaps more conceptually superior than practically superior. I'd always use a bean for a large tank, but usually use a herbie for smaller ones. The required flows for smaller tanks means that the open channel will be more than enough. On my big tank, for example, I am pushing about 1.550 gph through the overflow. Should my siphon get blocked, that's asking a lot from any open channel. With the bean, the secondary can do it easily. If you're pushing a few hundred, even a 1" open channel will handle that in a pinch.

 

[Flatlandreefer]

The bean is unquestionably superior ….. though in most cases perhaps more conceptually superior than practically superior. I'd always use a bean for a large tank, but usually use a herbie for smaller ones. The required flows for smaller tanks means that the open channel will be more than enough. On my big tank, for example, I am pushing about 1.550 gph through the overflow. Should my siphon get blocked, that's asking a lot from any open channel. With the bean, the secondary can do it easily. If you're pushing a few hundred, even a 1" open channel will handle that in a pinch.

How big of pipe are you using on your tank with 1,500 gph? Also is there any math or calculation that can be used to understand how much flow x diameter pipe can handle?

 

[ca1ore]

My bean uses 1 1/2" secondary and emergency, a 1" main siphon (but I have 10' of drop to accelerate things). I'm sure there are resources if you google them.

 

[Flatlandreefer]

FYI here is a link to a calculator that I found. It calculates the maximum discharge rate based on height between the top of the tank and the top of the sump and the inside diamater of your smallest fitting. 1" pipe can handle a lot more flow than I would have ever thought, especially when plumbing down to the basement(more head height).

http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

 

[ca1ore]

Just note that the flow number is when functioning as a full siphon (i.e. no air). Mine can easily handle 1,500 gph. Mix in some air, like you get with an open channel, and the capacity drops significantly.

 

[kirbuno]

Can't say about the bean animal but bought mine already set up with the Herbie and I really like it. Mine is a 120 gal. With 1.25" piping. Couldn't tell you the flow. Never calculated it. To me the animal is super overkill, but whatever gives you the peace of mind.

 

[Hal3134]

Since a Bean is essentially a Herbie with an extra drain then by definition the Bean is better. I ran a Herbie for years and just now set up my tank with a Bean (after a move). Having flooded my house on 3 occasions, I will take every margin for safety that I can get.

 

[Flatlandreefer]

Since a Bean is essentially a Herbie with an extra drain then by definition the Bean is better. I ran a Herbie for years and just now set up my tank with a Bean (after a move). Having flooded my house on 3 occasions, I will take every margin for safety that I can get.

I totally get that the Bean Animal is the Cadillac and superior in design to the herbie, but I'm wondering if there is a real/realistic risk of a herbie failing. When you say you have flooded your house on 3 occasions what caused the floods, overflow related? This is what I am after, are there really that many people in the hobby that have had a herbie fail and end up overflowing their tank?

 

[Flatlandreefer]

Just note that the flow number is when functioning as a full siphon (i.e. no air). Mine can easily handle 1,500 gph. Mix in some air, like you get with an open channel, and the capacity drops significantly.

True. What do you mean by an "open channel"?

 

[KJAG]

People always seem to stress about this, it really makes very little difference either way IME. I always choose to go the easiest and most simple method which is a single stand pipe of appropriate length topped off with a Maggie Muffler. Quiet, simple. Also, go with a low flow pump for the return, shoot for only 4-6x turnover after head loss. The whole system will be much quieter and its a more efficient use of energy to have the majority of the flow provided by a small pump inside the tank.

Personally I’m not concerned with the nominal energy savings of running a lower turnover. Maximum turnover is the entire goal, not just flow inside the display. Higher turnover equates to more water skimmed, treated with reactors, sterilizers, oxygenation, surface skimming etc etc which promotes a healthier system. A Herbie is Not just a bean minus a standpipe. A Bean is the only system where you can achieve a self tuning, maximum flow, virtual flood failsafe guaranteed system.

 

[ca1ore]

Hmmmmn, I ran a herbie-style overflow for decades. No flood.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Personally I’m not concerned with the nominal energy savings of running a lower turnover. Maximum turnover is the entire goal, not just flow inside the display. Higher turnover equates to more water skimmed, treated with reactors, sterilizers, oxygenation, surface skimming etc etc which promotes a healthier system. A Herbie is Not just a bean minus a standpipe. A Bean is the only system where you can achieve a self tuning, maximum flow, virtual flood failsafe guaranteed system.

"Nominal" is relative. Yours may not be the same as mine. I'd always run lower wattage and have a smaller electric bill where I live. Bean, Herbie, etc, they all work fine. Everyone has their preferences. For a drain, I see zero reason to have a need for "max flow", but like I said, I run low GPH return pumps like they do in Europe. A Maggie Muffler is also equally "virtual flood fail safe" by design and fits with my KISS style.

 

[lagatbezan]

I run a Herbie on my 300g and love it. Have a 1.5" emergency and 1.5" drain. The Emergency has no problem handling the full tank even if the regular drain is clogged completely.

 

[Hal3134]

I totally get that the Bean Animal is the Cadillac and superior in design to the herbie, but I'm wondering if there is a real/realistic risk of a herbie failing. When you say you have flooded your house on 3 occasions what caused the floods, overflow related? This is what I am after, are there really that many people in the hobby that have had a herbie fail and end up overflowing their tank?

My floods were all pre-Herbie and pre-Bean. Flood #1: waste water line from my RO became disconnected from my sink and drained all over the floor of my bathroom and leaked into the basement. Flood #2: Canister on my RO that is used for autotopoff cracked and leaked water onto basement floor. The float switch in my sump never triggered because the water wasn't going into my sump. Flood #3: can't remember, but it wasn't due to a drain clog.

Having said that, for the little extra effort of installing a Bean over a Herbie you get additional redundancy. Yes, it is redundant. On the other hand, the failure is catastrophic, so I don't mind redundancy. There's a reason that the space shuttle had three of everything.

Realistically, what's the chances of the main drain in a Herbie failing? Maybe 1%. And if that happens what's the chance of the emergency drain also failing. Maybe another 1%. So mathematically the chance of both failing is .01%. That's really low, but remember that you're runnning this every day for how many years into the future?

I've never heard of a Herbie failing, so maybe that's all you really need. On the other hand, the effort to upgrade it to a Bean is pretty minimal, so why wouldn't you do so?

 

[JaimeAdams]

Be an animal is obviously better. It is dead silent. It's what everyone making all these new fancy boxes replicate. Of course I'm partial since I know the guy

 

[Flatlandreefer]

My floods were all pre-Herbie and pre-Bean. Flood #1: waste water line from my RO became disconnected from my sink and drained all over the floor of my bathroom and leaked into the basement. Flood #2: Canister on my RO that is used for autotopoff cracked and leaked water onto basement floor. The float switch in my sump never triggered because the water wasn't going into my sump. Flood #3: can't remember, but it wasn't due to a drain clog.

Having said that, for the little extra effort of installing a Bean over a Herbie you get additional redundancy. Yes, it is redundant. On the other hand, the failure is catastrophic, so I don't mind redundancy. There's a reason that the space shuttle had three of everything.

Realistically, what's the chances of the main drain in a Herbie failing? Maybe 1%. And if that happens what's the chance of the emergency drain also failing. Maybe another 1%. So mathematically the chance of both failing is .01%. That's really low, but remember that you're runnning this every day for how many years into the future?

I've never heard of a Herbie failing, so maybe that's all you really need. On the other hand, the effort to upgrade it to a Bean is pretty minimal, so why wouldn't you do so?

Thanks for the clarification, defiantly don't want any floods. Redundancy is key for long term success in the hobby for sure. One reason not to do this is to minimize the number of holes that I have to take a risk drilling. My main motivation to stick with a herbie is to limit the number of holes that I have to drill in the wall, already ordered all of the plumbing for the bean so i'm not trying to penny pinch.

 

[hart24601]

I have two tanks with bean, and have run several with herbie. I have my sumps set up so the return chamber doesn't contain enough water to flood the tank even if the siphon and trickle drain get clogged so the 3rd drain isn't needed at all, but it's how I ordered the tanks. Should both pipes get clogged the return pump just cavitates air. I have zero issue with running a herbie instead of a bean. I mean I guess you could add a 4th pipe and call it a super bean and plumb it directly to a floor drain if you really wanted...

 

[jcl123]

I have a 135G with the typical dual "mega flow" overflows. Each one has two holes big enough for 1" bulkhead fittings.

So I am doing "dual herbie", two full siphons and two backups. I just tested the system to 1,700GPH, and that number is because that is as fast as it goes with both of my pumps on full blast (there are two for redundancy), well past the 1,350GPH (10X turnover for Triton) goal I wanted to reach. And the most impressive thing is it is completely silent, or rather there was a very quiet sound of water movement that was quite pleasant. But it is my brand new setup, so I am really happy it worked as I did allot of research.

Here are some things I did that I think helped:
- I actually used a combination of 1" sch 20 PVC (1-1/8" ID) and 1.25" sch 40, so I am getting a little boost from that extra volume (all hard plumbed)
- I drilled out the inside of my bulkhead fittings, so the PVC pipe goes straight through with no joints
- All my piping is pitched at an angle as much as possible, almost no horizontal run, minimized use of 90's, mostly 45's
- Used the most expensive Spears gate valves ($45/each) so that you have extremely fine siphon adjustment
- The intakes to my siphons are actually these massive 1.5" strainers, so that a snail or even a fish would not get stuck, very unlikely to clog with gunk
- I used the adjustable standpipes that came with the overflows so that I can fine-tune the height of the emergency drains real-time

Then I torture-tested the whole setup with scenarios:
- Test with one siphon blocked....no problem
- Test with both siphons blocked....no problem
- Test with both siphons and one emergency blocked (this did not work at full power, but it does at 1,400GPH, but a bit scary)
- And of course, anytime the emergencies are running you can hear it from anywhere in the house, really loud
- You need to play with different pipe heights on the drains and the pipes in the sump to optimize results

I have a "tray" setup below the tank with a real drain, mostly for my skimmer, but figured why not? It's convenient and not too hard to do.
As others have mentioned in this thread, there is not so much water in my sump before the pumps will run dry anyways, don't give it access to much water
And I may add a level sensor to the tank so that my Apex warns me if it gets too high

But, to answer your question, if you have the means to go bean without too much trouble, certainly do it. Peace of mind and karma are worth something even if it is overkill. Then even if you do have a flood, you can't say you were not doing your due diligence.

The only reason I didn't go bean is I got a deal on the tank already drilled, and I did not want to mess with making more holes. When I do my next setup I certainly will do bean given the opportunity, and probably also a coast-to-coast overflow. Note, if you use a box on the back of your tank, you can do one large hole instead of three, and then your three bean pipes are in the box, not your tank. And if you go over the top with your return, you could do one hole.

Hopefully that helps.

-JCL