High Nitrate and Phosphate

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jjbunn

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No cure/cycle...?

So the 100 ppm Nitrates came from...?

Let us know about your retest.

Above 20 ppm is known to start causing problems with marine critters.

Good question - I was hoping to hear some theories! Possibly the test kit is bad? Or I have a problem :( If stuff looked unhealthy and/or dead, I'd be more worried - but everything *looks* fine, and has done for weeks.

Thanks for the help and advice - much appreciated.
 
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Nobody is trying to pile on or give you a hard time. These forums are meant to be helpful. As Randy said, focus on the phos and nitrates. I highly recommend running GFO. (Or one of the other methods- they are all effective). And although you are not big on water changes, with 100ppm nitrate, at least this once, I would recommend you think about a pretty big one to get under control.

Just trying to help.

Your advice is well taken and thanks for it. I realise that I'm a little unconventional in my methods, but I'm just doing what's worked for me in the past - but this pair of high readings (Nitrate and Phosphate) has thrown me off a bit :)
 

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Get a GFO/Carbon Reactor or run some chaeta in your sump. I got a buddy that does that and has great success
 

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If u been doing this for 20 plus years, don't want to change ways, which is fine. Why ask for help when someone's response is doing a water change. And you don't want to take advice. Lol. Things change.
 

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You may have never started with uncured live rock before.

Unless you tell me you've been testing the whole time and this just showed up recently, that 100 ppm was just from die-off from when the rock was out of the water between the ocean and your tank...and is (or used to be) pretty normal for new rock in a new tank. (Seems like most get cured rock, or even dry rock these days....go figure.)

You sorta jumped the gun adding so much livestock so soon, so now it's best just to do away with the nitrates via a normal water change schedule. If you want to go back to whatever strategy was working before, I'd just do that after the numbers are all better. :)
 
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You may have never started with uncured live rock before.

Unless you tell me you've been testing the whole time and this just showed up recently, that 100 ppm was just from die-off from when the rock was out of the water between the ocean and your tank...and is (or used to be) pretty normal for new rock in a new tank. (Seems like most get cured rock, or even dry rock these days....go figure.)

You sorta jumped the gun adding so much livestock so soon, so now it's best just to do away with the nitrates via a normal water change schedule. If you want to go back to whatever strategy was working before, I'd just do that after the numbers are all better. :)

The TampaBaySaltwater live rock is never out of the water - it is shipped underwater, and was very fresh when it arrived.
 

mcarroll

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The TampaBaySaltwater live rock is never out of the water - it is shipped underwater, and was very fresh when it arrived.

If you think they guarantee no die-off you may want to contact them and see about this. (I have no idea one way or another....but not sure how they could ever make such a guarantee without being able to know what all has colonized their rock.)

You tell me you have 100ppm NO3. And that <.3 ppm ammonia = 0. OK.

I can tell you "what can cause it" or "what is normal".....but you have to tell me where it came from and if the tests are good as it's your tank and you are there. ;)

100 ppm in just two months...even with too much livestock would mean a lot of over feeding and otherwise-terrible husbandry....way more than any normal overfeeding situation. Feels like reaching...

But test again and see if the number is going up or down.

My guess is that it's trickling down due to denitrification within the live rock and sand, but barely due to the amount of nitrate being added by the fish.

It's also possible that the fish are exceeding the (current, possibly under-developed) denitrification capacity of the rock/sand and that ppm is static or going up.

In my book 100 ppm is really, really high nitrates....the only time it would be acceptable is after curing/cycling and before livestock are added. Some folks wouldn't even let it get that high and would do some water changes during cycling. Once the cycle is done, the water is corrected and only then is when livestock goes in.

Another angle to consider (assuming still that the 100 ppm is accurate) is that 100% of that nitrate started out as ammonia....so what livestock went through how much ammonia exposure is an open question.
 

mcarroll

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LOL - unlike you, he is very happy!

Very very few people succeed in keeping them happy - or even alive - in small tanks. Even the ones that start out very confident.

@Paul B here on Reef2Reef is one of the few, so if you have long-term intentions....study him and his methods. He wrote an article in the last few days on the subject. He's even got a book that you should read sooner than later. But, if you can't figure out how to do what he does, you pretty much shouldn't keep tangs in small tanks. 6 foot is the smallest.

I can't say with any completeness what he does different than the 99.9% of failures he stands apart from, so I never ever recommend tangs for less than 6 foot tanks, myself.

I try at least to encourage people who want to put tangs in smaller tanks anyway to stick with bristltooth tangs....they are more likely to be found solo in the wild and their "lifestyle" as a detritivore is much more inline with their future life in any aquarium. It's at least conceivable to me they could be happy without miles of reef to cruise.
 
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If you think they guarantee no die-off you may want to contact them and see about this. (I have no idea one way or another....but not sure how they could ever make such a guarantee without being able to know what all has colonized their rock.)

You tell me you have 100ppm NO3. And that <.3 ppm ammonia = 0. OK.

I can tell you "what can cause it" or "what is normal".....but you have to tell me where it came from and if the tests are good as it's your tank and you are there. ;)

100 ppm in just two months...even with too much livestock would mean a lot of over feeding and otherwise-terrible husbandry....way more than any normal overfeeding situation. Feels like reaching...

But test again and see if the number is going up or down.

My guess is that it's trickling down due to denitrification within the live rock and sand, but barely due to the amount of nitrate being added by the fish.

It's also possible that the fish are exceeding the (current, possibly under-developed) denitrification capacity of the rock/sand and that ppm is static or going up.

In my book 100 ppm is really, really high nitrates....the only time it would be acceptable is after curing/cycling and before livestock are added. Some folks wouldn't even let it get that high and would do some water changes during cycling. Once the cycle is done, the water is corrected and only then is when livestock goes in.

Another angle to consider (assuming still that the 100 ppm is accurate) is that 100% of that nitrate started out as ammonia....so what livestock went through how much ammonia exposure is an open question.

Thanks for this - I measured again just now and it's down to about 60ppm Nitrates (the colour key is hard to interpolate, so it's somewhere between 40 and 80).

Yes, 100ppm is astonishingly high - so high I don't understand why nothing is expiring.

(The Ammonia is less than 0.02ppm - my alert disk is no more accurate than that._

What are your thoughts on the following: I have many crabs, at least 30 Porcelain, a couple of other unidentified, and a big brute of a crab with muscular pincers that is definitely running amok: I've seen him pounce on other crabs and eat them. He started off quite small, but now he's about 3" across (leg tip to leg tip). (I think I need to get rid of him.) Due to his appetite, there are numerous crab shells dotted about the tank: stuff he's caught and eaten. Could these partially eaten crabs perhaps be a source of the elevated Nitrates? Or am I completely off-base?
 
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Very very few people succeed in keeping them happy - or even alive - in small tanks. Even the ones that start out very confident.

@Paul B here on Reef2Reef is one of the few, so if you have long-term intentions....study him and his methods. He wrote an article in the last few days on the subject. He's even got a book that you should read sooner than later. But, if you can't figure out how to do what he does, you pretty much shouldn't keep tangs in small tanks. 6 foot is the smallest.

I can't say with any completeness what he does different than the 99.9% of failures he stands apart from, so I never ever recommend tangs for less than 6 foot tanks, myself.

I try at least to encourage people who want to put tangs in smaller tanks anyway to stick with bristltooth tangs....they are more likely to be found solo in the wild and their "lifestyle" as a detritivore is much more inline with their future life in any aquarium. It's at least conceivable to me they could be happy without miles of reef to cruise.

Well, I don't know about that, but I've always had a yellow tang in each of my tanks (all around 50 gallons) and never had any problems - they have always eaten well and been very long-lived. Perhaps I've just been lucky?
 

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Perhaps I've just been lucky?

If you have to ask...yes! ;)

I was serious about Paul...the recent thread...and his book. Worth researching for anyone serious about keeping fish. :)

Thanks for this - I measured again just now and it's down to about 60ppm Nitrates (the colour key is hard to interpolate, so it's somewhere between 40 and 80).

Yes, 100ppm is astonishingly high - so high I don't understand why nothing is expiring.

Seems like too large a drop for just the scope of our conversation...but if you can take readings for a few days in a row, hopefully a nice trend will reveal itself. Perhaps it'll resolve itself at the rate you're seeing now. :)

Nitrates don't seem to be directly toxic...supposedly in excessive quantities nitrates can start replacing oxygen in some biological processes...probably not for the better....but I don't know the depth of what that really means. I did only a little reading, but seems that freshwater critters are more sensitive than saltwater....but the extent of the sensitivity or if there is a toxic level weren't clear.

Could these partially eaten crabs perhaps be a source of the elevated Nitrates?

I can't say impossible, but typically in a tank full of clean-up-crew a corpse of anything doesn't last long enough to look at. When something dies in the middle of the night and you miss it - you just have to wonder what happened to that critter, cuz by morning it is G O N E. So nothing left to rot. I don't think they could amount to 100 ppm when just considered as food, but I could be wrong.
 
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If you have to ask...yes! ;)

I was serious about Paul...the recent thread...and his book. Worth researching for anyone serious about keeping fish. :)



Seems like too large a drop for just the scope of our conversation...but if you can take readings for a few days in a row, hopefully a nice trend will reveal itself. Perhaps it'll resolve itself at the rate you're seeing now. :)

Nitrates don't seem to be directly toxic...supposedly in excessive quantities nitrates can start replacing oxygen in some biological processes...probably not for the better....but I don't know the depth of what that really means. I did only a little reading, but seems that freshwater critters are more sensitive than saltwater....but the extent of the sensitivity or if there is a toxic level weren't clear.



I can't say impossible, but typically in a tank full of clean-up-crew a corpse of anything doesn't last long enough to look at. When something dies in the middle of the night and you miss it - you just have to wonder what happened to that critter, cuz by morning it is G O N E. So nothing left to rot. I don't think they could amount to 100 ppm when just considered as food, but I could be wrong.

I'll read Paul's thread - thanks for the pointer! And I will update as and when I take more Nitrate measurements. Again, thanks for your advice.
 

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Thanks for this - I measured again just now and it's down to about 60ppm Nitrates (the colour key is hard to interpolate, so it's somewhere between 40 and 80).

Yes, 100ppm is astonishingly high - so high I don't understand why nothing is expiring.
_?

I do not think that 100 ppm necessarily kills anything, it is just not optimal.

There are loads of good ways to reduce nitrate. You can take your pick what might work best for you:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium
 

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Sooooo many things to quote. Lol

Im not the expert that some of these guys are but i can say, being someone who hates waterchanges. I went every 2 weeks 20percent change when i battled moderate nitrate and phos problem. Ive since got to 10perce t weekley, so mucb easier.

Water changes are very important imo and as for never have doing them, every tank and situation is different. One tank that needs this and that may have different needs from thw next and maybe this tank...unfortunatley, needs them. Atleast to get param under control do a few big ones. It wont hurt nor is it difficult.

Now seeing as there is no sump...could the part of the problem be the water is not being agitated enough to allpw gasses to escape? Can anyone add to or confirm this theory?
 
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I do not think that 100 ppm necessarily kills anything, it is just not optimal.

There are loads of good ways to reduce nitrate. You can take your pick what might work best for you:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium

Thanks again - I think I will try the vodka - it seems well proven. But before doing that I will monitor the Nitrate level a couple more days to see if the downward trend continues.
 
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Sooooo many things to quote. Lol

Im not the expert that some of these guys are but i can say, being someone who hates waterchanges. I went every 2 weeks 20percent change when i battled moderate nitrate and phos problem. Ive since got to 10perce t weekley, so mucb easier.

Water changes are very important imo and as for never have doing them, every tank and situation is different. One tank that needs this and that may have different needs from thw next and maybe this tank...unfortunatley, needs them. Atleast to get param under control do a few big ones. It wont hurt nor is it difficult.

Now seeing as there is no sump...could the part of the problem be the water is not being agitated enough to allpw gasses to escape? Can anyone add to or confirm this theory?

I hope you aren't right about this particular tank needing water changes ;) ... but your point is well taken. As for the water movement and surface agitation, I have a Jebao 25 in "Else" mode that broils the surface of the water, so I think the gas exchange from that should be good. I also have a good skimmer, which I believe also helps with this. Nevertheless, at mcarroll's suggestion, I will add another powerhead to induce a bit more turbulence.
 

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