high nitrates

[mattzang]

hello, so perhaps someone can help me work on my nitrates.

for quite awhile my tank seemed to hang in the range of 10 nitrates or so, which seemed ok. I'm not trying anything too hard to keep so that seemed alright.

my corals are all still looking ok, despite the occasional issue (like my lemon goniopora recently dying due to brown jelly) but most other stuff is out and fluffy. Recently my nitrates have really jumped up into the 50ish range. my phosphates were also highish (I guess?) at around .50-1. I added some of the high capacity GFO and so my phosphates are now in the .25 range, but nitrates are still high

my sump is fairly small.. i do have a refugium, but it's a pretty small area. I seem to get decent chaeto growth, but it's obviously not quite cutting it. i've had some issues getting my new skimmer going recently, but looks like it's putting in work now. i tried a bag of the seachem denitrate stuff, but not sure that stuff is working (or perhaps i need to change the media out and it's not picking up nitrates anymore hence my rise?). i do a 5 gallon water change once a week (or once every 2 weeks). tank is 50 gallons + 10-15 gallons in the sump

My options (at least as far as I can tell):

-more frequent and larger water changes (i'd rather not)
-possibly get a chaeto reactor going
-dosing nopox (i've read you need phoshates to do that or else it's dangerous, are my levels acceptable to dose that?

I've probably overstocked the my tank and probably overfeed, so the last couple of weeks i've tried to cut back on feeding, but i'd like to figure out a way to feed about what i do if possible.

thanks!

 

[Robink]

I put xenia in the sump as I could not grow chaeto if my life depended on it. I figured this would be the easiest, least expensive way for me to lower my nitrates. Got them down from about 50 to between 10-15.

 

[lapin]

I've probably overstocked the my tank and probably overfeed, so the last couple of weeks i've tried to cut back on feeding, but i'd like to figure out a way to feed about what i do if possible.

To quote Randy:

1. Reduce The Inputs Of Nitrogen To The Aquaria
If you are overfeeding, stop. I’m not, however, suggesting that folks starve any organisms in their aquaria for the sake of reducing nitrate levels. There are better options available. If you are using tap water, test it for nitrate to see if it is a source, and if so, purify it first. A reverse osmosis/deionizing system( RO/DI) is best for a variety of reasons, but a simple RO or DI system will likely be adequate for this purpose.

2. Increase Nitrogen Export By Skimming, Or Skimming More Extensively
Such skimming alone does not usually permit aquaria to eliminate a nitrate problem, but it can be a significant help, and also has other benefits, such as aeration and phosphorus removal.

3. Increase Nitrogen Export By Growing And Harvesting Macroalgae Or Turf Algae (Or Any Other Organism Of Your Choice)
The more that you grow and harvest, the more nitrogen will be exported, cutting down on the amount that ends up as nitrate. The procedure is often effective at driving nitrate levels below those detectable by most aquarium nitrate kits (about 0.5 ppm). This process also has the advantage of exporting phosphorus.

Of course there is carbon dosing. However I feel that only works as a short term solution since the underlying problem is still there.

 

[mattzang]

I put xenia in the sump as I could not grow chaeto if my life depended on it. I figured this would be the easiest, least expensive way for me to lower my nitrates. Got them down from about 50 to between 10-15.

hmm i used to actually have some xenia, but i redid my rockwork a couple months ago and decided to just leave out the rocks that had xenia on them since i was starting to see lots of growth (too much lol)

i won't lie, i kinda miss it sometimes. that white wavy stuff was pretty cool, but it started appearing on the other side of the tank

i can grow chaeto, but the area is so small it probably isn't doing enough to overcome

To quote Randy:

1. Reduce The Inputs Of Nitrogen To The Aquaria
If you are overfeeding, stop. I’m not, however, suggesting that folks starve any organisms in their aquaria for the sake of reducing nitrate levels. There are better options available. If you are using tap water, test it for nitrate to see if it is a source, and if so, purify it first. A reverse osmosis/deionizing system( RO/DI) is best for a variety of reasons, but a simple RO or DI system will likely be adequate for this purpose.

2. Increase Nitrogen Export By Skimming, Or Skimming More Extensively
Such skimming alone does not usually permit aquaria to eliminate a nitrate problem, but it can be a significant help, and also has other benefits, such as aeration and phosphorus removal.

3. Increase Nitrogen Export By Growing And Harvesting Macroalgae Or Turf Algae (Or Any Other Organism Of Your Choice)
The more that you grow and harvest, the more nitrogen will be exported, cutting down on the amount that ends up as nitrate. The procedure is often effective at driving nitrate levels below those detectable by most aquarium nitrate kits (about 0.5 ppm). This process also has the advantage of exporting phosphorus.

Of course there is carbon dosing. However I feel that only works as a short term solution since the underlying problem is still there.

well it's hard to tell what's overfeeding. i got an anthias a couple months back and started feeding 1 cube of frozen per day along with a piece of LRS along with some flakes and pellets for good measure. so lately i've been cutting back to just 1 cube of frozen per day and being very selective about feeding pellets or flakes.

i've tried to increase my CUC, maybe more nassarius snails would be good. also i don't have anything except one larger hermit in my refugium area, that thing is pretty dirty. maybe i should get some more hermits for the sump?

skimmer wise that's why i got the new skimmer so i could overskim essentially. perhaps since it hasn't been skimming much while i tuned it, that could be partially to blame for nitrates getting higher.

 

[mattzang]

so to update here, i got my skimmer working more efficiently and cut my feeding in half (from 2 to 1 cube of frozen per day), but nitrates are still sky high. dosed 2 ml of nopox tonight for the first time, but i'd like to correct my underlying problem.

like what am i doing wrong here? refugium seems to be basically worthless and too small, perhaps i need to do a macroalgae reactor or biopellet reactor? do i just have too many fish in my tank? 8 in a 50 gallon w/ 10-15 gallon sump + 3 shrimp + standard cuc

weekly 5 gallon water changes not enough? do i need to stir up the sand (i have 2 sand burying wrasses so stopped doing that), and i blow up detritus with a turkey baster before doing the water change.

i have a lot of rock in my tank plus a lot of marinepure + seachem matrix, can there be too much bio filtration going on? something leaching nitrates?

i don't mess with the sump really, no cleaning it, is it maybe just leaching a ton of nitrates down there? need to shop vac it?

 

[Applegate]

so to update here, i got my skimmer working more efficiently and cut my feeding in half (from 2 to 1 cube of frozen per day), but nitrates are still sky high. dosed 2 ml of nopox tonight for the first time, but i'd like to correct my underlying problem.

like what am i doing wrong here? refugium seems to be basically worthless and too small, perhaps i need to do a macroalgae reactor or biopellet reactor? do i just have too many fish in my tank? 8 in a 50 gallon w/ 10-15 gallon sump + 3 shrimp + standard cuc

weekly 5 gallon water changes not enough? do i need to stir up the sand (i have 2 sand burying wrasses so stopped doing that), and i blow up detritus with a turkey baster before doing the water change.

i have a lot of rock in my tank plus a lot of marinepure + seachem matrix, can there be too much bio filtration going on? something leaching nitrates?

i don't mess with the sump really, no cleaning it, is it maybe just leaching a ton of nitrates down there? need to shop vac it?

Here's my two cents.

First off what all fish do you have? I see you have one anthias and 2 wrasse so far. What kinds of wrasse and what are the other 5 fish? That will tell us if you're over stocked or not.

Second, if you have never touched your sump, that is where most of your detritus is going to pile up at, so depending on how old it is, it can be a major source.

Same with your substrate, it can hold old food and detritus and leach out nutrients, however in my experience it takes a while to get to that point so depends on how old the tank is.

Last, you mention 5 gallon water changes once a week, maybe every other week, that's really an acceptable amount for a run and maintain situation. Remember water changes only dilute your nutrients so if you're trying to dilute your nutrients less than 10% at a time every other week... you're not going to make progress. When I had nutrient issues, I was doing 30-40% water changes weekly.

Good luck

 

[mattzang]

Here's my two cents.

First off what all fish do you have? I see you have one anthias and 2 wrasse so far. What kinds of wrasse and what are the other 5 fish? That will tell us if you're over stocked or not.

Second, if you have never touched your sump, that is where most of your detritus is going to pile up at, so depending on how old it is, it can be a major source.

Same with your substrate, it can hold old food and detritus and leach out nutrients, however in my experience it takes a while to get to that point so depends on how old the tank is.

Last, you mention 5 gallon water changes once a week, maybe every other week, that's really an acceptable amount for a run and maintain situation. Remember water changes only dilute your nutrients so if you're trying to dilute your nutrients less than 10% at a time every other week... you're not going to make progress. When I had nutrient issues, I was doing 30-40% water changes weekly.

Good luck

i have 1 red line wrasse, 1 yellow wrasse, 2 ocellaris clowns, 1 bangaii cardinal, 1 orchid dottyback, 1 springer damsel, 1 lyretail anthias, and 1 midas blenny. my levels were, what i thought at least, pretty good <10 nitrates before i got the last two fish, the wrasses. i was hoping to kind of overstock with a large skimmer and thought i'd be good to go.

tank is about 6 months old and yeah i've never shop vacced the sump, is that really a necessity? i have a conch and some nassarius snails along with a bunch of hermits, sand seems to stay pretty clean looking. i started overfeeding when i added the anthias reading that they like to eat a lot, so i've cut back on that, but was shocked to see my nitrates were still sky high when i tested earlier.

 

[Jaykay495]

Hi matt,

What lighting do you have in your refugium, how long are you running the light for daily and what growth are you seeing on the cheato over say a 7 day period?

The refugium doesn’t have to be all that large, and your display to sump looks fine, but a light that will let it photosynththesize and grow is vital. The light doesnt have to be expensive.

It might also just be that your light is too high above the cheato. You want to see bubbles on the algae after the light has been on for about an hour, and a doubling in size of cheato over a 7 day period. I run my light on an opposite schedule to the display tank lights.

A decent refugium will drop your nitrate and phos to low to unreadable over about 4 to 5 weeks. You might just need a tweak to get it being more productive

Edited to add that i was considering nopox to drop nitrates, as mine were sat at 50+ ppm, so am coming from a similar perspective to you.

 

[topjimmy]

I have used carbon dosing with great success in reducing nitrates. Have you looked into trying that?

 

[mattzang]

I have used carbon dosing with great success in reducing nitrates. Have you looked into trying that?

yeah i did nopox for the first time yesterday, going to try 2 ml daily and test often

Hi matt,

What lighting do you have in your refugium, how long are you running the light for daily and what growth are you seeing on the cheato over say a 7 day period?

The refugium doesn’t have to be all that large, and your display to sump looks fine, but a light that will let it photosynththesize and grow is vital. The light doesnt have to be expensive.

It might also just be that your light is too high above the cheato. You want to see bubbles on the algae after the light has been on for about an hour, and a doubling in size of cheato over a 7 day period. I run my light on an opposite schedule to the display tank lights.

A decent refugium will drop your nitrate and phos to low to unreadable over about 4 to 5 weeks. You might just need a tweak to get it being more productive

Edited to add that i was considering nopox to drop nitrates, as mine were sat at 50+ ppm, so am coming from a similar perspective to you.

aquatic life reno light cheapo little light, i'm glad you asked because that should've been one of the things i was wondering about, maybe adding more light or a different light.

i run it 24/7 as i tried running it just at night and the chaeto died. my mom has a tank and ran her biocube refugium area light 24/7 and has insane growth so i just left mine on 24/7 too. it's hard to tell how much growth there is, but double in a week i don't think would be a good estimate.

i have some miracle mud in the refugium area and i'm not sure it does anything, anyone have any experience with the brightwell xport no3 bricks? i had some of their cubes and they disintegrated so i'm leery of going that route, but i did have them in a somewhat higher flow area, refugium should be nice and low flow..

another option is there's a guy selling an aquamaxx xl reactor near me i could pick up, and do one of those chaeto reactors with it. that seems preferable to carbon dosing constantly or trying biopellets..

 

[Jaykay495]

Hi matt, i’d swap that light out for an led par 38. i think your current lamp may not quite have the light output to get the cheato growing as you’d like. Go about 15 to 18w (higher the better), and get as narrow a beam as you can (i have a 25 degree one, so narrow spotlight).

Over here in the UK, the fitting / pendant for the light is called e27.

Mine plugs into a lcd timer, and is set for reverse-schedule. The cable is held to the roof of the sump via two strips of heavy duty velcro, but you could of course use other fixings.

The lamp is low over the cheato, about 6 inches above it and the waterline.

This basic and cheap setup will grow your cheato, and in turn assist with dropping nutrients over a month or so. My refugium has been up a week, and i’ve just bagged some to post to another reefer so he can start up an algae reactor.

Low cost, and works

 

[mattzang]

so maybe something like this

or this

i think i'm going to pickup the aforementioned reactor and maybe try to do both, improve fuge light and do a chaeto reactor. that's my long term fix i guess!

then to get nitrates lower for now do some 20%-30% water changes while carbon dosing to get it nice and low then hopefully have the chaetos going to town and be good to go

thanks for your help everyone that responded!

 

[Jaykay495]

Those would work.

Mine is very similar to this,

https://www.amazon.com/Dimmable-Equivalent-Waterproof-Outdoor-Certified/dp/B01N7OJVKI/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1547635390&sr=1-3-spons&keywords=par38+led+flood+light&refinements=p_n_feature_keywords_five_browse-bin:7801670011,p_n_feature_seventeen_browse-bin:9692445011,p_72:1248909011&psc=1

Its your $$$, but i’d try the light upgrade first and then see after a month where your nitrate and phosphate go. If your cheato is growing, i’d be expecting to see improved figures at two weeks.

I’m usually the first to blow money on new tank kit, and was eyeing up the kessil h80. I then watched the BRS Tv investigates on cheato and refugiums, and that convinced me to try a Par 38. In their tests, it dropped nitrate and phosphate to near zero over 4 weeks, and cost 10% of the kessil.

Am hoping for similar results myself

 

[mattzang]

Those would work.

Mine is very similar to this,

https://www.amazon.com/Dimmable-Equivalent-Waterproof-Outdoor-Certified/dp/B01N7OJVKI/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1547635390&sr=1-3-spons&keywords=par38+led+flood+light&refinements=p_n_feature_keywords_five_browse-bin:7801670011,p_n_feature_seventeen_browse-bin:9692445011,p_72:1248909011&psc=1

Its your $$$, but i’d try the light upgrade first and then see after a month where your nitrate and phosphate go. If your cheato is growing, i’d be expecting to see improved figures at two weeks.

I’m usually the first to blow money on new tank kit, and was eyeing up the kessil h80. I then watched the BRS Tv investigates on cheato and refugiums, and that convinced me to try a Par 38. In their tests, it dropped nitrate and phosphate to near zero over 4 weeks, and cost 10% of the kessil.

Am hoping for similar results myself

I'm sure I watched that video, but I should probably rewatch

I think I'll pick up the reactor (only $30) but hold off on getting the other stuff I'd need for it. I read that over time the light heat cracks the acrylic so that might not be fun.

 

[mattzang]

so new update: i now have lowish nitrates, i'd guesstimate 15 or so!

thanks to everyone that helped me through this, especially @Jaykay495 !!! for bringing up the refugium light. I've had that light you linked on there for about 3 weeks and it is growing chaeto like a beast, which I'm sure accounts for some of my reduced nitrates and hopefully going forward my continued lowish (manageable) nitrates.

and if anyone else stumbles upon this thread tearing their hair out wondering what to do with sky high nitrates (i sure know there were plenty of "help i have high nitrates!" threads on here), here's what I did:

large water changes. idk why it wasn't apparent to me at first, but if you have 80 nitrates and you do a 5 gallon water change, what are you now at.. maybe 70? big water changes! I was doing 20 gallons once or twice a week, which really sucks since I don't have a super cool water change method. siphon out, lift and pour new water in. pain in the butt. Turns out my 50 gallon cube, 20 gallons is probably around 35% or so, the main tank was definitely around half empty. My LFS actually tried to tell me to not do big water changes "because you'll start another cycle on your tank". LFS advice isn't always the best is what I've learned. I saw a video recently of Jason Fox's house and he said he does a 1/3 water change every other week on his big system. Don't be my LFS, big water changes!

I also started carbon dosing with NoPox. I was afraid to start doing this, but nothing bad has happened due to this as far as I can tell. This stuff is semi expensive so when I run out I'll probably make my own, I found on here you can make your own which is:

The recipe for NOPOX is 375 mls Vodka, 125 mls RO/DI, 500 mls Vinegar

I also upgraded my refugium light to a PAR38 light, which has some bleedover and now I have some algae growing all over my sump but I can deal with that. I also have an airstone in there and put in a tiny little jebao pump/powerhead to hopefully oxygenate the chaetoball. At first it was growing well but only at the surface, so that's when I added the airstone and pump. Now it seems to be growing below the surface better along with me manually turning it over every couple of days (idk how people get it to tumble, bigger refugium i'd guess?)

I didn't end up getting the chaeto reactor as the guy on offerup went silent one day. Good old craigslist/offerup. People are weird

Now to not get lazy and try to go weeks or months between testing parameters so they don't catch me off guard! It was probably a good experience actually, the idea of doing a water change of half my display's volume scared me at first, but it made me learn and that's all this hobby is right? ;Happy

 

[Hemmdog]

Good to hear. I started Nopox today myself.

 

[Jaykay495]

Thats great!

My nitrates have halved over about 5 weeks using the par38.

I’ll be looking to reduce my refugium lighting schedule once i get to about 15ppm, as i dont want to run too low on nutrients.

Its a tightrope

 

[mattzang]

Thats great!

My nitrates have halved over about 5 weeks using the par38.

I’ll be looking to reduce my refugium lighting schedule once i get to about 15ppm, as i dont want to run too low on nutrients.

Its a tightrope

hah, yeah I'm probably going to reduce my lighting time too, gotta get that pH balance!

I'll be happy if I can stay somewhere in the 5-15 range, but I'm sure I'll now wind up going right down to 0 and tearing my hair out with the issues that come with that

 

[mattzang]

so... just tested in anticipation of water change tomorrow.. 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates. does carbon dosing eat up phosphates? i read it mostly will eat up nitrates, not so much phosphates. i do have a bag of high capacity gfo in the sump, but i used to get readings in the .25-.50 range while having it in there. i'll have to check this later against the hanna phosphate checker

definitely going to lower my aggressive levels of nopox and get my fuge light on a timer at night

also back to out of control feeding!! lol