HLLE? Purple Tang

[mdjacks]

I got my purple tang about 4 weeks ago and on the 2 day in QT it started getting white spots. So i treated with copper and now after about 4 weeks, it appears all gone. Now i'm woundering if it has HLLE? Tank parimiters are all good, copper has been removed.

 

[Triggreef]

Selcon everyday. A couple times a week at least. It will come back, eventually if you don't give up on him.

 

[Humblefish]

Selcon everyday. A couple times a week at least. It will come back, eventually if you don't give up on him.

^^This. I saw a "before" and "after" thread one time of a Purple Tang badly damaged from HLLE. The poster fixed it by soaking food in Selcon & Zoecon on alternating days. Took almost a year, but you couldn't even tell anything had been wrong with the tang. Also, be sure #1 & #2 (below) aren't potential issues.

Head & Lateral Line Erosion "HLLE":

Symptoms - HLLE literally looks as though the skin is rotting or peeling off the fish. Affected areas usually include the face and lateral line, and may be white in color.

Treatment options - This is more of a condition than an actual disease. Since no one can agree on the exact cause, all you can do is address all of the following theories regarding HLLE:

1) Stray voltage - Use a titanium ground probe & test your tank for stray voltage.
2) Running carbon - Don’t use it, or use only premium grade carbon.
3) Nutritional deficiency - Feed high quality nutritional foods. Some have had success reversing the effects of HLLE by soaking food in “fish vitamins†and also feeding nori.

 

[Humblefish]

Below are all articles dealing with carbon & HLLE:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...ted-in-inducing-head-and-lateral-line-erosion

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/activated-carbon-affirmed-as-causative-agent-for-hlle-disease

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/activated-carbon-hlle-smoking-gun-found

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/hlle-head-lateral-line-erosion-activated-carbon-connection-4702/

 

[mdjacks]

I'll start treating the food with selcon. I am running carbon in the bio-wheel filter. I'll remove it tonight when i get home. I don't think there's is any stray voltage but i'll look into that. Thanks

 

[Humblefish]

I'll start treating the food with selcon. I am running carbon in the bio-wheel filter. I'll remove it tonight when i get home. I don't think there's is any stray voltage but i'll look into that. Thanks

IMO; running carbon is OK but you gotta use the "good stuff". I hate having to pony up for BRS Rox 0.8, but I've never seen HLLE in any of my fish while using it. (I do have a Chevron Tang with HLLE, but I acquired him like that.)

 

[mdjacks]

I wouldn't call the marineland emperor filter cartridge (i did prerinse it) premium carbon but i was just using it to remove the copper. Now that it is removed, I'll just remove it and use filter floss.

 

[tigerdragon]

Quality carbon yes. Un Rinsed carbon? The studies all said they did this why would anyone not rinse and introduce all that black crap into your tank. Most run a protein skimmer and yes you dont want the carbon tumbling it would chew it up and here you go more fines. So to me parts of the study are ok but its definitely incomplete. So to make the assumption that carbon is the problem is premature esp if there is no study that uses the filtration sys that most use. For me i would not take these studies as gospel. Your own sys will tell you. I run carbon have for years have had multiple tangs and angels the only one i had hlle on i got from someone else.

 

[Triggreef]

My opinion might differ from a lot of the reading I've done as well. I can't say I know what the cause is, but I can easily rule some things out. Carbon being one. I had 7 tangs (I say had, because I'm selling them to get a couple butterflies in, then plan to start over with tangs) in my reef system, none with HLLE but one did have the beginnings of it (on the head) along with fin rot, during a brief stay in QT under cupramine. That was a yellow tang which had already been through cupramine once with no ill effect. However the second time around it was due to a resurgence of ich and I broke down the system to run fallow. That tang unfortunately went straight into a full level (.5+) treatment all at once (2 yrs ago ish). He made it through the treatment and back into my display, and this pic is from only a week ago...

In that system I run marineland carbon which I consider cheap but not bottom of the line. In a reactor, not tumbling. I actually fill the (twolittlefishies) reactor about 3/4 full (not 3/4 cup, 3/4 of the reactor full) on my 260g system and have been changing it monthly. I do rinse it well with ro water. I consider this to be needed 100% especially after my triton results. You can absolutely see the difference in the water if I let it go too long without changing.

GFO, I don't know if people try to put the blame on this really but I'm sure someone has at some point. I also run quite a bit of GFO (phosban) and I would rule that out.

NUTRITION: That would be my best guess as to a cause. My yellow tang mentioned above, was eating everything prior to that 2nd quarantine process. He was really mad at being pulled from my display and moved into a bare (at that time) tank. He stopped eating for a while and only ate nori through the entire qt. This fish ate everything that touched the water, and just stopped all at once, only nori. fins rotted away to almost nothing. HLLE began on the head. I had no intention of ever putting it back in my tank. The day I decided it was time, I caught all the fish it was with to move into the display including him and without even realizing it dumped him back in the tank with the others. Soon as he hit the water I was like oops! but there was no way to get him due to tank size/ aquascape. He immediately returned to eating everything again and fins began growing back. Not too long after he was back to his old self and no signs of HLLE.

I fed nori soaked in selcon which I'm sure helped, but I also fed macro from my sump/fuge which I'm sure helped more. As well as live black worms which I'm positive are the best available food for your reef period. Mysis daily. I feed 3-5 times a day every day. I'm not scared of nutrients. All my tangs are the healthiest around. I feel so bad when I see other tangs because I just see how skinny and obviously mal-nurished they are and people don't seem to get it, more often than not (LFS's but also some hobbiest's stuck on pellet diet). Don't get me wrong I feed NLS pellets as well and I'm sure that they are good, but just lacking what you get from everything else. I still feed nori several times a week if not every day, but I no longer soak it in selcon after I ran out of the first bottle. Did it help? I'm sure it did. Is it needed with all the other items I feed? Probly not, and none of my tangs are going down hill.

Now onto my 125g FOWLR tank... 4 tangs in there. Bad water, never changed any or tested anything. Completely ignored tank for the most part. No carbon, no GFO. No nothing really. I have major overhaul plans for the tank but $ and mostly time are lacking. That said they are all pretty healthy but there is also a yellow tang in there with the beginnings of HLLE. I feed the tank a decent amount but probably half of what I feed my reef. Forget blackworms quite a bit. Could definitely do things better for these fish but I basically want to start it all over again so I don't really even see it much. Thats the cause IMO. I'm sure I could bring this tang back with time, more black worms, and selcon soaked nori. But I have no real interest in the tank and no $$ to do what I want with it so it sits in limbo. I am trying to unload some of the livestock in there to get the ball rolling but it's easier said than done.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with you in hopes it can help you out, or someone else. Also, I took an interest in this thread, because I plan a purple tang when I re-up my tangs. I also plan to buy one with HLLE to start, because I'm not going to pay $240 for what I consider a $40 tang. Thats what I used to sell them for when I worked in a LFS as a teen. I understand why they are so expensive now but I just can't really get past that.

 

[Humblefish]

@Triggreef AWESOME INPUT! Thank you for that. :bigsmile: If we lived closer, I'd give you a Chevron Tang with HLLE (inherited it that way from someone else), and I'm betting you'd be able to bring it back 100%.

Back when I did aquarium maintenance (15-20 years ago) I noticed almost every single one of our clients' fish developed HLLE. All we fed was flake (via automatic feeders), and they got raw shrimp/romaine lettuce once every week or two when we serviced the tank. (Disclaimer: I wasn't the owner, so I had no say in the fish's nutrition.) So that makes me think it's mostly a nutrition thing. There's no way we had stray voltage in every single aquarium (60+).

However, we also ran cheap carbon in every single tank. Again, as per the owner's instructions. So, I've never been 100% certain which one of those was doing the most damage. I only use Rox 0.8 in all my tanks and feed a wide variety of foods, and never see HLLE. So, I'm no help with solving the mystery. :wink:

 

[Triggreef]

Thanks humble, my reply ended up much longer than intended. I wish I had better pics from when my yt was bad, but it seems like you don't really think about getting good pics of a poor quality fish. When the time comes for a pt I'll take good pics and document well. Here's some older ones I found from my yt. You can see fins starting to grow back and obvious discoloration from hlle above the eye and face.

 

[Humblefish]

I can see it pretty good in your second pic. Below is a before & a couple of after pics of my Chevron. I guess I've had him about a year now. The guy I got him from never fed nori. I probably could have done better with him, but I'm on the road a lot and it's challenging enough just to get my wife to feed the fish (she's not gonna soak his food in vitamins. :squigglemouth Unfortunately, he's getting very aggressive with my smaller fish so I may need to rehome him soon. :sad:

 

[Saltgator]

Great stuff Triggreef. I've recently been doing this (selcon) with my black tang and seeing great results. He and the rest of my tangs and angel get quality nori every other day as well (a must imo with tangs and angels)

Humblefish, good luck with the chevron, hope he bounces back for you or the next owner.

 

[mdjacks]

I pulled the carbon last night to be on the safe side and soaked food with selcon today. He has about 2 more weeks in the QT tank then i'll get him in the main tank. I have a yellow tang and blue hippo that look great in the main tank. I'll keep up with soaking of the food and nurse him back. Thanks for all the input.

 

[cdness]

I acquired a purple tang with MAJOR HLLE issues and was determined to save him... I did MelaFix Marine, Epsom Salts and quality food for about a year and he is pretty much healed. He still has some scarring, but the prior owner said he tried so many times and couldn't fix it. I am figuring it is a permanent scar... This was all done in a quarantine tank with good parameters taking the water change water from the main tank in order to keep a biological strain going. It was tedious but it worked for me. Your results may vary though, this is just what worked for me.