HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

[Pod_01]

Oh I agree and applies to both sides. Showing a picture to make an argument against something else is a bit silly. I do enjoy the pictures though.

I do like the pictures a lot. Since I am relatively new reefer it helps me to know what is good, what is not so good and that my tank is not so good…..
I just wish the pros/ long time reefers showed their not so good pictures. People mostly show great to best.

Like when SPS looks like this, now I know this is bad:

Or this;

On the other hand this is good:

and this is also good:

ICP is nice tool but now that I know what to look for (because of pictures and experience at killing corals) I can nip some issues before they cause more problems. At least I can tell from the corals that something is not going well.

 

[Snoopy 67]

As I was told when Triton was first introduced here in the states, "It's just another tool in your toolbox.
Not the end all perfect scenario".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have been using ICP test since my start of my latest aquarium - back in 2016. Its one of the tools I have. I will show you two different events (even if they are in the same time) where these tests have been of a huge importance for my aquarium, The one is about a macro element and the other is related to a trace element that can turn into toxicity if it is to high. Last fall - I run into some problems with death of some of my favourite fishes. Of different reasons - I did not do any test during the fall of 2022. The one I took in early January this year shows som unwanted result. Potassium concentrations high away from my safety belt. It was 513 mg/L. I had to do something. The only way to manage this would be by using WC and with a salt containing as low K concentration butt possible. I contact Christoph at Oceamo and ask him if he know which salt that had the lowest amounts of potassium. I was lucky because they was just on their way to introduce the liquid corrector salt - Oceamo Corrector - where you could decide your own concentration of Ca. K and alkalinity with help of add or not add additives to the liquid salt. I did a calculating that result in a serie of WC - 40 L first day and after that a serie of 6 WC of 5 L/day. Their calculator show that this should bring down my K concentrations from 513 to around 390. Below you can find the actual graph.

The concentration dropped exactly as expected - indicating that at least a relative scale existed

However - I´m not found of that last measurement indicate a rising concentration again, hence I now and then use zero K in the Oceamo corrector I use in the salt addition I make to compensate for the water losses from my testing with my KH director. IMO - for fish - to high K-concentration can be very fatal.

The author of the first post in this thread claim that Saliferts potassium test done by 2 testers is as good as ICP testing

Lets look at the result from the potassium test

And then take a look at the compilation

I must quote Mark Twain in this case


By the way - Salifert do not have the marine potassium test in their product catalog any longer

The other event there my ICP tests have been of major help is a suddenly appearance of elevated tin levels. Its in the same sample as the elevated potassium concentrations. Here, too, the level fell as expected. Note - its one month between the tests in January/February and the February test is around 10 days after last WC

In this case - as for all trace elements and many pollutants, there are no hobby alternatives that either can measure low levels or lower levels than toxic levels.

This thread is about if hobby grade test kits can outperform ICP measurements or not. But the basic red thread has been to lift up all concerns about ICP testings but not use the same type of critical glasses on the starting post or the documentation and manuals for the hobby grade methods.

The argue that "wee did not need any ICP twenty years ago in order to create beautiful colourful reefs" is IMO ridicules and just bla-bla. Its like I should claim that seat belts in cars is a idiotically made up by car manufacturers to make more money because I survive my first 7 years as a car driver - including a serve accident - without using safe belts.

ICP tests - right used - is a tool you can use. Exactly as seat belts is a layer of extra safety if an accident happens

Sincerely Lasse

​

Thanks, Lasse. We’re the fish visibly suffering at the elevated K level and did that change when you lowered it?

Reason I ask is that some folks promote elevated K to “improve” coral colors.

 

[jda]

There are plenty of posts about lost fish when people tried to use KCl to kill AEFW in their tanks. It worked as a dip to dislodge them so people tried an in-tank method and killed plenty of shrimp and fish and sometimes total losses. I doubt that many of them had accurate tests, but it seemed that levels around 600, and up, started the problems. Corals have died with too much or too long of exposure. Coral dip is around 1500ppm for 5 minute. I have never done this... results were too mixed with some loving it and others claiming issues - kinda like this thread in general.

 

[Thales]

I have been using ICP test since my start of my latest aquarium - back in 2016. Its one of the tools I have. I will show you two different events (even if they are in the same time) where these tests have been of a huge importance for my aquarium, The one is about a macro element and the other is related to a trace element that can turn into toxicity if it is to high. Last fall - I run into some problems with death of some of my favourite fishes. Of different reasons - I did not do any test during the fall of 2022. The one I took in early January this year shows som unwanted result. Potassium concentrations high away from my safety belt. It was 513 mg/L. I had to do something. The only way to manage this would be by using WC and with a salt containing as low K concentration butt possible. I contact Christoph at Oceamo and ask him if he know which salt that had the lowest amounts of potassium. I was lucky because they was just on their way to introduce the liquid corrector salt - Oceamo Corrector - where you could decide your own concentration of Ca. K and alkalinity with help of add or not add additives to the liquid salt. I did a calculating that result in a serie of WC - 40 L first day and after that a serie of 6 WC of 5 L/day. Their calculator show that this should bring down my K concentrations from 513 to around 390. Below you can find the actual graph.

The concentration dropped exactly as expected - indicating that at least a relative scale existed

However - I´m not found of that last measurement indicate a rising concentration again, hence I now and then use zero K in the Oceamo corrector I use in the salt addition I make to compensate for the water losses from my testing with my KH director. IMO - for fish - to high K-concentration can be very fatal.

The author of the first post in this thread claim that Saliferts potassium test done by 2 testers is as good as ICP testing

Lets look at the result from the potassium test

And then take a look at the compilation

I must quote Mark Twain in this case


By the way - Salifert do not have the marine potassium test in their product catalog any longer

The other event there my ICP tests have been of major help is a suddenly appearance of elevated tin levels. Its in the same sample as the elevated potassium concentrations. Here, too, the level fell as expected. Note - its one month between the tests in January/February and the February test is around 10 days after last WC

In this case - as for all trace elements and many pollutants, there are no hobby alternatives that either can measure low levels or lower levels than toxic levels.

This thread is about if hobby grade test kits can outperform ICP measurements or not. But the basic red thread has been to lift up all concerns about ICP testings but not use the same type of critical glasses on the starting post or the documentation and manuals for the hobby grade methods.

The argue that "wee did not need any ICP twenty years ago in order to create beautiful colourful reefs" is IMO ridicules and just bla-bla. Its like I should claim that seat belts in cars is a idiotically made up by car manufacturers to make more money because I survive my first 7 years as a car driver - including a serve accident - without using safe belts.

ICP tests - right used - is a tool you can use. Exactly as seat belts is a layer of extra safety if an accident happens

Sincerely Lasse

​

You had me till the seat belt analogy. If seat belts were as expensive, took as much time, and included questionable results all Hidden behind proprietary claims no one would use them. Seat belts are drop dead simple, cheap, and they produce reliable results. Icp, not so much.

 

[jda]

Yeah, but you and Carlos are old school pro’s from Brazil correct? The average reefer will likely never come close to your success.

This is the funniest thing that I have read on here in a while. ...like I actually laughed. Is this the hobby equivalent to just throwing hands up in the air in exasperation? This the "i'm not a doo-doo head, you are a doo-doo head!" argument?

The seeming lack of awareness that nearly all average reefers will never come close to success with any method is kinda funny to me too. Many already failed and are failing now with ICP-and-dose type of systems.

The simplicity outlined by this one particular old school pro compared to a more complex system by somebody with less results is also staggering to me. The simple one is too hard and can only be done by pros... the more complex one HAS TO be easier and better, right? Just in general, the amount of posts about people getting more simple and having better long term success is like exponentially more - nobody posts "in my 10 years of reefing, I wish that I would have made things harder."

Dude - just say that you enjoy messing with stuff, have bought into this in a cultish kinda way and that you just like it. That is the correct and right answer. It is Ok to admit and say this since spending money on things that you like is the best thing to do with it since paying bills and insurance sucks.

Maybe there is some secret sauce that only Brazilians know about.

 

[Rick Mathew]

The author of the first post in this thread claim that Saliferts potassium test done by 2 testers is as good as ICP testing

Actually what I said was "The results indicate that both methods would yield reasonably good measurement of potassium, each doing a good job of capturing the majority of the 60 ppm spike."

In the case of potassium the ICP vendor (except 1) results account for a greater percentage of the spiked amount than the testers using the Salifert kits which the data (statistics) clearly show as you pointed out.

I totally agree that ICP data "used correctly" is a great tool to have in ones tool box.

Rick

 

[jda]

My 5 year expired Salifert test kit shows 360-370 in my freshly mixed IO. I have never needed to dose potassium so I don't care if the fresh salt mix is 360 or 370. Hard to over dose if you don't dose it, right?

The test kit has held up better than the box.

 

[Lasse]

Thanks, Lasse. We’re the fish visibly suffering at the elevated K level and did that change when you lowered it?

A short resume of my (as I remember it) experiences with potassium

Back in January 2015 I had fish dying one after another - a triton test show potassium concentrations above 600 mg/L. Also high Iodine concentrations (around 300 µg/L) - next coming test - still high potassium concentrations - above 600 mg/L- but Iodine was down to zero. I do not trust the Iodine concentrations. I did massive WC and fish stop to die and the aquarium was going very well till around May when something else happened. I had a lot of work and I just moved all living things and let it be with water - should restart it after the summer. However it was never restarted ans in april 2016 I started my present aquarium instead.

One interesting thing is that during the high K event - my corals had never looking better, in spite of very high PO4 concentrations (1.4 ppm ) My fish and hermits did not thrive though.

Last fall (2022) I had a similar thing happen. Some fish drop off and at one occasion some of my favourite fishes die in a couple of days. This event (not drop off but several died fish at the same time) I probably can´t blame high potassium concentrations but the slow drop off and that I lose some hermits make me send in an analyses again. Because of rather much work during the fall - I did the analyse in January this year. And it show up with high K concentrations. I did the WC in second week of February and after that - I have had 1 fish that drop of (2 weeks ago)

Yes - the fish suffered before the WC. The WC that was first a 12 % WC and followed by 6 x 3 % WC. It is not the heavy WC I did last time but it (because of lack of K in the new salt) was concentrated on the task to lower the potassium.

But - I can´t say that its K that is responsible fot my drop off´s but at least the last event may indicate that. I change around 1/3 of the water but in small steps and with all other parameters just alike the value already present in the water (not for tin though). Sure - I can´t rule out the tin - sole or in combination.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

My 5 year expired Salifert test kit shows 360-370 in my freshly mixed IO. I have never needed to dose potassium so I don't care if the fresh salt mix is 360 or 370. Hard to over dose if you don't dose it, right?

The test kit has held up better than the box.

In the last case - I did not dose at all. After what happens back in 2015 - I will not dose potassium if I´m not sure and follow it up with proper testings.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes - the fish suffered before the WC. The WC that was first a 12 % WC and followed by 6 x 3 % WC. It is not the heavy WC I did last time but it (because of lack of K in the new salt) was concentrated on the task to lower the potassium.

Thanks for the info!

 

[jda]

In the last case - I did not dose at all. After what happens back in 2015 - I will not dose potassium if I´m not sure and follow it up with proper testings.

Sincerely Lasse

My tank always seems to be at 390, if you trust Habib. I don't dose anything. Fish food, probably? Carbi Sea says that their CaRx media contains some K, but Dr. RHF says that this is not likely possible. I don't know and I don't care. I have not every seen any evidence that I need to mess with K, which is why my test kit is so old and probably has 80% left.

 

[Lasse]

My tank always seems to be at 390, if you trust Habib. I don't dose anything. Fish food, probably? Carbi Sea says that their CaRx media contains some K, but Dr. RHF says that this is not likely possible. I don't know and I don't care. I have not every seen any evidence that I need to mess with K, which is why my test kit is so old and probably has 80% left.

Exactly - you should not mess with the potassium - that´s the reason why I try to show what´s can happen. The idea with adding K comes up with the use of the zeolite method - it shows up that zeolites used in that method can absorb K.

In my last case - I have no single idea where it comes from more that I use an old salt mixture to hold up the salinity from using around 600 ml seawater/day for testing of KH

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

Actually what I said was "The results indicate that both methods would yield reasonably good measurement of potassium, each doing a good job of capturing the majority of the 60 ppm spike."

In the case of potassium the ICP vendor (except 1) results account for a greater percentage of the spiked amount than the testers using the Salifert kits which the data (statistics) clearly show as you pointed out.

I totally agree that ICP data "used correctly" is a great tool to have in ones tool box.

Rick

I want to expand on the “used correctly” part a bit (based on my understanding of our current study and discussions).

Hobby ICP results are unlikely to have the same accuracy and precision across all reported element results. Low concentration elements (< 1 ppm) may or may not have useful accuracy or precision. Elements with concentrations above 1 ppm are measured very consistently across vendors and detection methods (OES, MS). The one accuracy test we have seen (Ross, Maupin data) also shows very good accuracy in this concentration range. @Lasse use of ICP to monitor and adjust potassium levels is an example of ICP reliability matching the testing need, i.e., “used correctly”. We might not be justified in saying the same for using ICP results for all elements below 1 ppm based just on the potassium example. Understanding how well ICP results are for managing element concentrations below 1 ppm will take more work.

 

[drawman]

Just saw this and I hope others do. Beautiful experiment I love what you guys are doing bringing evidence to the hobby.

 

[Rick Mathew]

Just saw this and I hope others do. Beautiful experiment I love what you guys are doing bringing evidence to the hobby.

Thank you sir...much appreciated!

 

[MnFish1]

A short resume of my (as I remember it) experiences with potassium

Back in January 2015 I had fish dying one after another - a triton test show potassium concentrations above 600 mg/L. Also high Iodine concentrations (around 300 µg/L) - next coming test - still high potassium concentrations - above 600 mg/L- but Iodine was down to zero. I do not trust the Iodine concentrations. I did massive WC and fish stop to die and the aquarium was going very well till around May when something else happened. I had a lot of work and I just moved all living things and let it be with water - should restart it after the summer. However it was never restarted ans in april 2016 I started my present aquarium instead.

One interesting thing is that during the high K event - my corals had never looking better, in spite of very high PO4 concentrations (1.4 ppm ) My fish and hermits did not thrive though.

Last fall (2022) I had a similar thing happen. Some fish drop off and at one occasion some of my favourite fishes die in a couple of days. This event (not drop off but several died fish at the same time) I probably can´t blame high potassium concentrations but the slow drop off and that I lose some hermits make me send in an analyses again. Because of rather much work during the fall - I did the analyse in January this year. And it show up with high K concentrations. I did the WC in second week of February and after that - I have had 1 fish that drop of (2 weeks ago)

Yes - the fish suffered before the WC. The WC that was first a 12 % WC and followed by 6 x 3 % WC. It is not the heavy WC I did last time but it (because of lack of K in the new salt) was concentrated on the task to lower the potassium.

But - I can´t say that its K that is responsible fot my drop off´s but at least the last event may indicate that. I change around 1/3 of the water but in small steps and with all other parameters just alike the value already present in the water (not for tin though). Sure - I can´t rule out the tin - sole or in combination.

Sincerely Lasse

It is clear that potassium is a very toxic element above a certain limit.

 

[MnFish1]

I want to expand on the “used correctly” part a bit (based on my understanding of our current study and discussions).

Hobby ICP results are unlikely to have the same accuracy and precision across all reported element results. Low concentration elements (< 1 ppm) may or may not have useful accuracy or precision. Elements with concentrations above 1 ppm are measured very consistently across vendors and detection methods (OES, MS). The one accuracy test we have seen (Ross, Maupin data) also shows very good accuracy in this concentration range. @Lasse use of ICP to monitor and adjust potassium levels is an example of ICP reliability matching the testing need, i.e., “used correctly”. We might not be justified in saying the same for using ICP results for all elements below 1 ppm based just on the potassium example. Understanding how well ICP results are for managing element concentrations below 1 ppm will take more work.

you might be right that 'unlikely is correct(vis a vis ICP tests)' - however - you have nothing to base that on (hobby ICP test are unlikely to have the same accuracy.....). The question is why measure it - Most people do not. Have we created an entire industry on ICP tests to test to elements in our water. Great - you made a potassium test - but - what is the use? This is not designed to be offensive to you - however - what's the point I would (guess) 99% of reefers have never considered nor needed a potassium test. However I'm glad that - for the 1% that do - you've potentially figured out a better test.

 

[jason2459]

It is clear that potassium is a very toxic element above a certain limit.

It'll certainly kill a human.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It'll certainly kill a human.

Takes a huge amount in a person with functioning kidneys. i use KCl in place of NaCl as a salt substitute.