Home solar power installations?

[Greybeard]

I'm contemplating a home solar system. Had a guy come and talk to me today. Seems to make sense, from his talk, but I'd like some feedback from people who have had them installed.

Got solar? How do you like it?

 

[norfolkgarden]

It's not feasible for me here in Virginia because I don't want to give up the trees that shade the house.

Google has a shade Sun calculator for your house to find out more information.

Parents neighbor in Massachusetts loves it!
Full Sun all day and South orientation to the back of their house.
The house is a ranch with the long way running East West.

Their system is a leased system so there is minimal cost but there is also minimal benefit. It dropped his electric bill between a $150 and $200 a month.
He will own the system in 20(?) years.

Did not get a chance to ask him about how it relates to peak power demand during the day, nor does he have a battery backup for electricity storage locally.

I love this subject!

I wish Puerto Rico could move to a solar and battery based system like that island in French Polynesia did.
(Yeah, the French Polynesian islands system was donated by Elon Musk to show Proof of Concept but it works ridiculously well. )

They have been saving tens of thousands of dollars in diesel cost every year.

Hope your system brings you lots of happiness and a great financial return!

Can you give us some idea of the parameters involved?

 

[Terence]

Makes sense if you care about environment. Financial sense? Not really. Payback is often 15-20 years and that does not take into account the fact that in 7 years you will buy one for 30% Less than today. Also does not take into account t what you could do with that money. If you lease, and then want to sell your home, you are responsible for the balloon balance remaining unless you are really a good sales person and get the buyers to take on the paper. Also, if you lease on a cost per kWh, you pay for 100% produced. And, should they produce less, they can come climb on YOUR roof whenever they want - because you rented it to them. Good luck.

 

[Greybeard]

Can you give us some idea of the parameters involved?

Parameters for my system... if I build it? Sure.

30kw ground mount, grid tied system. Plenty of wide open space, it'll get as much sun as we get here in Southern MO.

 

[RichtheReefer21]

A friend of mine has a 2 story house with a 3-car separate garage, long and low.

His typical electric bill for over $200 a month prior to install. 10 months after covering the garage with panels, on a 10-year buy plan, he has a credit of $750 with the electric company.

His monthly payments are around $240 a month.

So right now it is covering his original ~$200 bill, plus about $30 return, which just about covers the payment for the panels.

If you have the correct orientation (his garage slope faces south), it's definitely worth it. Plus tax rebates on the purchase of solar.

Thumbs up all around!

 

[Greybeard]

Makes sense if you care about environment. Financial sense? Not really. Payback is often 15-20 years and that does not take into account the fact that in 7 years you will buy one for 30% Less than today. Also does not take into account t what you could do with that money. If you lease, and then want to sell your home, you are responsible for the balloon balance remaining unless you are really a good sales person and get the buyers to take on the paper. Also, if you lease on a cost per kWh, you pay for 100% produced. And, should they produce less, they can come climb on YOUR roof whenever they want - because you rented it to them. Good luck.

I'm no greenie... sure, I like a clean environment, but if it doesn't make financial sense, I'm not going to do it. As for cost justification, I've been saying much the same thing for many years. Not so sure that's true anymore.

1st, dismiss anything you've said about leasing... I'm not going to do that.

After rebates and tax incentives, I'd be financing just under 40k @ 3% for 20 years. Scary, I know. Hear me out. Payments on that will be just over $200. I"m paying $450 a month on average for electricity now. With a grid tied system, calculated to produce about the same amount of electricity as I use annually, my average electric bill will be $15 (that's the connection fee). So... for 20 years, I'll save over half of what I'm paying... if electricity stays at the same cost (and no, it won't). System is fully guaranteed for 25 years, so, even if the entire system dies immediately after the guarantee expires, I'll pay virtually nothing for electricity for 5 years. At my age, with decent maintenance, I believe I can expect this system to last me the rest of my life.

So. 225 (or so) savings a month, X 20 years, = 54k in savings on a 40k investment, the day it's paid for, it'll have paid for itself, plus 35%.

Add in just 5 years of $30 electrical payments (assuming the connection cost doubles), and you can add another 25k to that savings. Based on my reading, I expect the system to last longer than that, but for this, we'll just say it's going to die the day the guarantee ends.

If I do nothing, and the price of electricity doesn't go up a penny (fat chance), I'll spend 135,000 on electricity in the next 25 years.

As for system price decreasing... Rebates and tax incentives are rapidly drying up (Fed tax rebate expires in 2021. My power company ends their rebate in 2020, assuming it's not extended). Will prices on panels keep going down? Sure. By 80% in 7 years? No way... half the cost of installing a system is labor. No way that's going down, and the price of the panels has been flattening out for several years now.

Oh, and moving? They'll take me out of this place in a pine box. I'm not going anywhere.

 

[Greybeard]

A friend of mine has a 2 story house with a 3-car separate garage, long and low.

His typical electric bill for over $200 a month prior to install. 10 months after covering the garage with panels, on a 10-year buy plan, he has a credit of $750 with the electric company.

His monthly payments are around $240 a month.

So right now it is covering his original ~$200 bill, plus about $30 return, which just about covers the payment for the panels.

If you have the correct orientation (his garage slope faces south), it's definitely worth it. Plus tax rebates on the purchase of solar.

Thumbs up all around!

Good to hear.

At his price level, I probably wouldn't do it... but I'm glad he's happy. My current electric charges are _way_ higher... it makes things easier to justify.

I'm not putting panels on the roof. I've got the open ground... it'll be much easier to maintain them on the ground, and we can point them any way we want. I've got a gentle southern facing slope that's basically cattle pasture behind the house... acres and acres of it. Lots of space, no worries about shade, great view of the southern sky. No need to put holes in my 4 year old steel roof, thanks :)

The house is large, inefficient, 100% electric, and power hungry. To define that a bit better, 5500 sq ft, 1972 stick built ranch, swimming pool, hot tub... No gas, no propane, well is electric, so there's no water bill. Septic system, so there's no city sewage... the ONLY bill I've got is electricity, and yeah, it's high.

 

[PerplexyHexy]

We are getting solar at the end of the month through sunlux... getting a $33k system for $24k... paying $215 a month for 15 years... Our current bill for summer which is close to 6 months here runs about $4-600 a month... In the winter 6 months it runs around $150-$250... so it makes sense for us... especially now that I will be having 3 tank running in the house... only thing I keep hearing about is that people are paying large sums and the end of the year still to electric company... havent looked into this yet... just word of mouth... and ive heard anywhere from $1k to $6k... anyone hear of this?

 

[Tanggy]

I live in Southern CA and we installed solar 3 years ago. I just wished we installed it way b4. Our monthly bill was $300-400 per month (higher during the summer). Now we are payment about less $1000 per year. We bought ours. Pay off of the system is 10-12 years for us. We feel less guilty when the AC is on during the hot summer months.

 

[PerplexyHexy]

I live in Southern CA and we installed solar 3 years ago. I just wished we installed it way b4. Our monthly bill was $300-400 per month (higher during the summer). Now we are payment about less $1000 per year. We bought ours. Pay off of the system is 10-12 years for us. We feel less guilty when the AC is on during the hot summer months.

So have you heard aboit that lump sump you pay at the month to Edison or whoever? Or am I just hearing thing

 

[Terence]

On open ground, not moving, cash purchase, cost per kwh now of >=$0.20 -- I'd probably do it - especially because with a ground install I could purchase all the equipment at discount and do 90% myself (with a bit of paid labor). All of those factors are highly unusual for the average person considering solar. Usually they are simply trading payments with payouts >10 years down the road. Some would say that other home upgrades do not have the same ROI. That would be untrue. I do not know anyone who enjoys looking at, lives in or on, or dives into, their solar panels - and you will get far more ROI at the sale of your home in 5-7 years if you remodel your kitchen and two bathrooms.

I would not trust the 25-year warranties any more than I would trust them to keep the rain off my head when I make them into an origami hat.

And as far as government subsidy. The market adjusts for such things. Right now it is artificially high due to the subsidies.

Every situation is different. I just looked into this. Again. My install would be 90-100k, before subsidy. It would save me about $5500/year. There is about a 20% chance I will be in this home 10 more years. If I spent $60K towards a major upgrade elsewhere in the house, in 5 years it will give me at least a 20%-30% higher ROI than the solar - and I get to enjoy it for those years.

Every single person situation is different but not everyone takes everything they should into consideration when it comes to solar. That's my $0.02

 

[Greybeard]

<snip>with a ground install I could purchase all the equipment at discount and do 90% myself</snip>

Something else I'm looking into. I have a friend that worked for years installing these things... says he'd be willing to help... and I certainly don't mind a bit of sweat equity.

Cuts the price of an installed system by about half.

 

[Terence]

Here is a great article that describes some of the nightmares people are going through. https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2017/12/sungevity-solar-leases-bankruptcy-headaches/

 

[Terence]

Something else I'm looking into. I have a friend that worked for years installing these things... says he'd be willing to help... and I certainly don't mind a bit of sweat equity.

Cuts the price of an installed system by about half.

Absolutely - as I said, your situation (based on all you described here) is a rare one where I can totally see this working with very little downside and I would not even delay starting the project.

 

[Matthew Frost]

Greybeard, do some research on the system itself and see if they are wired in a series or parallel. Systems in a series will only be as efficient as the least efficient panel. The fact that you can put it on the ground is a HUGE plus, your installation costs will be cheaper and it will be way easier to maintain.

The question of to do it or not to depends on your circumstances, it seems for you it will make sense especially long term. Here in AZ when solar really got traction the local electric company petitioned the corporation commission (paid the right people to change the law) and they charge a higher port charge if you have solar that all but wipes out the financial benefit. And then there is that whole HOA approval process....

 

[Tanggy]

So have you heard aboit that lump sump you pay at the month to Edison or whoever? Or am I just hearing thing

Yes. We pay about $10 per month (taxes...) and at the end of the year we pay the lump sum.

 

[Greybeard]

For me, it's gotta be financially sound from day 1... waiting 5 or 10 years to start to see savings, well I just wouldn't do it.

Matthew Frost brought up one reason... who knows what the power company will do in the future.

On the same note... batteries have come a long way... it might be reasonable, in a decade or so, to buy a truck load of batteries and take the system off grid. Just can't predict the future.

What I do know is this: I'm paying $450 a month (level payment plan, varies from $250-800). The numbers I quoted above are the 1st solar company I spoke to, for a complete turn key system... and it already makes immediate financial sense to implement.

Got another solar company coming to talk to me... and I'm having my friend, who used to install solar systems, come out for dinner over the weekend.

I'm in no rush... took me 9 months from initial planning to getting wet on my last reef :)

 

[norfolkgarden]

30Kw? Nice spread!

Will you be adding battery backup as either an actual back up, or the electric company gets to draw from it during peak electricity use during the day?

There are a lot of options nowadays on how things are built, or even financially structured, electricity usage wise. Battery backup makes a difference in SHTF or simple every day usage in a normal day.

I don't think we will ever give up nuclear or natural gas in the next 40 years.

Coal is as legacy as the shipyard railways I work on.
They still exist, so we continue to use them.
Lol, the future is floating drydocks.

Solar/wind now compete successfully with traditional fuels on price per Kw.
The problem is hour by hour reliability.

Sufficient Battery backup smooths that out completely.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Not me unfortunately, but a friend of mine got the Tesla roof installed and he says he loves it. He hasn't paid a power bill in almost a year. He doesn't have much power draw at his home in the first place (and clearly doesn't run a reef tank ;) )

 

[Greybeard]

30Kw? Nice spread!

Will you be adding battery backup as either an actual back up, or the electric company gets to draw from it during peak electricity use during the day?

There are a lot of options nowadays on how things are built, or even financially structured, electricity usage wise. Battery backup makes a difference in SHTF or simple every day usage in a normal day.

I don't think we will ever give up nuclear or natural gas in the next 40 years.

Coal is as legacy as the shipyard railways I work on.
They still exist, so we continue to use them.
Lol, the future is floating drydocks.

Solar/wind now compete successfully with traditional fuels on price per Kw.
The problem is hour by hour reliability.

Sufficient Battery backup smooths that out completely.

Thanks.

Initially, at least, I'm not looking at batteries. That may change, at some point. Grid tied solar is required for electric co rebate (probably 12k for my system). No reason I can't add batteries later. Honestly, at the price of batteries these days, it'll probably wait a while. I've got a perfectly functional generator for the rare occasions that the power system is down. Each inverter has a 2kw 110VAC outlet on it that is available during power outage (long as the sun is shining!), though the grid tie in is obviously disabled (don't want to electrocute some lineman!). Be easy to set up a battery system connected to that, run my pellet stove, reef... the essentials :)