How do you know if you are "over-filtering" your tank?

[CourtNjoeZreef]

I believe i am running too much filtration but i also have readable nitrate and phos. i have the dinos that come in the morning and leave town at night. i feed once a day. 2 frozen cubes (wide variety) algae barn ocean majic and red sea AB+.

I feel like my corals grow slow. i dont see this magical 6month growth transformation in anything that so many get. "fast growing sticks" my parameters are within "spec" 400-440 calcium 8.5-9.5 alk 1300+ mag ect. 32ppm salinity 78-79 degrees as thats the one degree the inkbird provides in the controller. ph (on my current round of calibration on the apex) goes from 8.3-8.56 then back to 8.3 at night. its consistent so i believe that it is okay.

Weekly 20g water changes on my now 100 gallon system. Roller mat-> bio brick-> Chemipure blue-> dr.tims wateaway gel->refugium (grows slow not chaeto some other macro algae the lfs had) i have a skimmer but i havent had it on in a while it kept pulling the nitrates down too low. so i am "Trying" the refugium. perhaps worse situation overall in hind sight. dose kalkwasser opposite the ph swing to keep it more steady. less then 200 ML daily.

But again i dont get fast coral growth at all. the element uptake doesn't really warrant anything more then a little kalwasser if it happens to dip for a day or two either a water change or all for reef 10ml straightens it out in a 24 hour period. (i always test again the day after adding things to see the effects)

Sorry for the word vomit just im in the thick of it here and then this question pops up almost like im living in the truman show lol.... umm im not right?

 

[Jase4224]

In my experience in the past when No3 and Po4 were 0 for a long time (nearly a year) this resulted in bleaching and eventually weakened and then dead corals. Despite heavy feeding and aminos, although aminos definitely brought back colour.

 

[Screwgunner]

Yes , you can! I did a do it yourself algea scrubber and started my tank with no nutrients. My corals hardly grew at all in that time. Then the dreaded dinnos. My screen was 10x16 I cut it down to 10x7 and my nitrates went up and phosphates stay at .06 .07. Dinnos dissappear on there own once my nutrients went up. With the help of bottle bacteria. I did lose a staghorn and a birdsnest .

 

[Screwgunner]

If you ask me this should be a must read
For all beginners!

 

[MrGisonni]

When my no3 drops below 20ppm i get green algae on my rocks, maybe its bryopsis... very strange, with no3 above 20ppm my rocks looks great. Dont know why?

Me too

 

[Placenta89]

I am so lucky for this forum because I was definetly overfiltered even in my small biocube 32. I now have a good rhythm but nitrates and phosphates are easily depleted. I feed every day and I've never been above 5ppm in nO3 and 0.1 in po4 for more than a day or 2. Only thing that annoys me is the outbreak of spaghetti worms due to daily feeding but I tried alternating days feeding and everything dropped to 0 about a week later so I'll have to get some arrowhead crabs if they ever become available at my lfs.

 

[MnFish1]

Not too many years ago it was a common belief that your tank should be as clean of nutrients as possible! I made the mistake and what ensued was a 1+ year of dino hell!

One issue IMHO is that there is no definition of 'clean' - do you mean NO3, PO4, organics, detritus, etc etc? I'm not sure I totally believe some of the 'common wisdom' about Dinos.

 

[Screwgunner]

Go ahead and run your tank at .00 on nitrate and phosphate. It may not happen right away but it will.

I believe i am running too much filtration but i also have readable nitrate and phos. i have the dinos that come in the morning and leave town at night. i feed once a day. 2 frozen cubes (wide variety) algae barn ocean majic and red sea AB+.

I feel like my corals grow slow. i dont see this magical 6month growth transformation in anything that so many get. "fast growing sticks" my parameters are within "spec" 400-440 calcium 8.5-9.5 alk 1300+ mag ect. 32ppm salinity 78-79 degrees as thats the one degree the inkbird provides in the controller. ph (on my current round of calibration on the apex) goes from 8.3-8.56 then back to 8.3 at night. its consistent so i believe that it is okay.

Weekly 20g water changes on my now 100 gallon system. Roller mat-> bio brick-> Chemipure blue-> dr.tims wateaway gel->refugium (grows slow not chaeto some other macro algae the lfs had) i have a skimmer but i havent had it on in a while it kept pulling the nitrates down too low. so i am "Trying" the refugium. perhaps worse situation overall in hind sight. dose kalkwasser opposite the ph swing to keep it more steady. less then 200 ML daily.

But again i dont get fast coral growth at all. the element uptake doesn't really warrant anything more then a little kalwasser if it happens to dip for a day or two either a water change or all for reef 10ml straightens it out in a 24 hour period. (i always test again the day after adding things to see the effects)

Sorry for the word vomit just im in the thick of it here and then this question pops up almost like im living in the truman show lol.... umm im not right?

I'm sorry did not see phosphate or nitrate. Numbers!

 

[Screwgunner]

I believe i am running too much filtration but i also have readable nitrate and phos. i have the dinos that come in the morning and leave town at night. i feed once a day. 2 frozen cubes (wide variety) algae barn ocean majic and red sea AB+.

I feel like my corals grow slow. i dont see this magical 6month growth transformation in anything that so many get. "fast growing sticks" my parameters are within "spec" 400-440 calcium 8.5-9.5 alk 1300+ mag ect. 32ppm salinity 78-79 degrees as thats the one degree the inkbird provides in the controller. ph (on my current round of calibration on the apex) goes from 8.3-8.56 then back to 8.3 at night. its consistent so i believe that it is okay.

Weekly 20g water changes on my now 100 gallon system. Roller mat-> bio brick-> Chemipure blue-> dr.tims wateaway gel->refugium (grows slow not chaeto some other macro algae the lfs had) i have a skimmer but i havent had it on in a while it kept pulling the nitrates down too low. so i am "Trying" the refugium. perhaps worse situation overall in hind sight. dose kalkwasser opposite the ph swing to keep it more steady. less then 200 ML daily.

But again i dont get fast coral growth at all. the element uptake doesn't really warrant anything more then a little kalwasser if it happens to dip for a day or two either a water change or all for reef 10ml straightens it out in a 24 hour period. (i always test again the day after adding things to see the effects)

Sorry for the word vomit just im in the thick of it here and then this question pops up almost like im living in the truman show lol.... umm im not right?

My corals did not grow at all . Until I got my phosphates to .1 and nitrates 10 and now they grow like krazy.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I selected other.
What is meant by" filtering"? Biologically water is cleared from nutrients by new growth. Is this also " filtering"? In fact nothing is filtered out as long new growth is not harvested. When a thank becomes over-filtered? For example when using a mechanical filter for removing particulate organic waste, organic nutrients, feces of fishes and other organisms, Because by organisms released ammonia is not removed and nutrients present in the feces are needed to remove the inorganic nitrogen, a tank can be over-filtered very fast. Using a skimmer may one say the tank is over-filtered because nutrients needed to remove the inorganic nitrogen are removed constantly, which may lead to a high nitrogen availability? Most denitrification taking place is due to anaerobic remineralization needing organic waste. Removing organics by mechanical filters may lead to an increasing nutrient unbalance, not being able to use up available nitrogen, creating blooms of growth when periodically all nutrients sufficiently become available . To clear water of nutrients new growth is needed but some of that growth may be responsible for having water which is not clear at all. Filtering out these particulate organics ( plankton) can it be considered to be over-filtering only when it leads to water loaded with inorganic nutrients? Over-filtering? Does this mean the balance is lost? Is it about removing to much? May harvesting growth lead to over-filtering?

 

[BBN Reefer]

My tank is a little over a year old and my nitrates are consistently around 3 and I'm having to dose to get detectible phosphates I am only using filter socks...no skimmer. I started with dry rock and have seen others on R2R have the same issues with undetectable phosphate levels. Is a skimmer just going to strip my nutrients even worse?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I think it depends on what you are filtering.

I don’t think you overdo biological filtration as nitrifying bacteria colonies can’t exceed their food source, no matter how much media they have they will just be less densly populated over excess media the food source is the limiting factor, you can however have not enough media to support your bacteria colony for example in a bare bottom tank with hardly any rockwork.

I think you can very easily mechanically or chemically over filter your tank, for example all the pods and beneficial organisms etc in the water column are being mechanically removed, killed by UV/ozone or if you add too much GFO or overdo the carbon dosing totally eliminating NO3 and PO4.

so IMO you can’t overdo biological filtration but you can overdo other methods mechanical/chemical etc.

I do agree it is difficult to overdo biological filtration., as long one does respect the natural balances. And then one may ask the question why so many authors discourage the use of biofilters, claiming nitrifying bio-filters being responsible for too much nitrate production. Nitrate being safely stored usable nitrogen produced using toxic amonia not used up by faster heterotrophic growth. Biofiltration is not only about remineralization removing organic waste and nitrification, producing nitrate, an endproduct of aerobic mineralization, but it is also about reusing all produced inorganics and use them for new growth, clearing the water. One may overdo biofiltration this if a balance between reducers and producers is not found, by wich the water can not be cleared without using other than biological filtration methods.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

My tank is a little over a year old and my nitrates are consistently around 3 and I'm having to dose to get detectible phosphates I am only using filter socks...no skimmer. I started with dry rock and have seen others on R2R have the same issues with undetectable phosphate levels. Is a skimmer just going to strip my nutrients even worse?

Adding a skimmer constantly removing particulate and dissolved organics and leaving ammonia and nitrate, what will be the result on the long term?
Water is cleared by growth. Growing producers ( macro algae? ) in a refuge if more filtration capacity is needed may be a good solution instead of a skimmer. Algae will take up more nitrogen in relation to phosphorus if nitrate availability increases. Using AAM, active algae management, one may condition the tank for the future, by installing and maintain the growth needed.

 

[CourtNjoeZreef]

My corals did not grow at all . Until I got my phosphates to .1 and nitrates 10 and now they grow like krazy.

Sorry been a hectic few days. Generally my phos is .2 and nitrate 10-30ppm

 

[BAMatter]

Definitely overfiltered via large fuge, slightly oversized skimmer, and reactor that was running GFO. Bottomed out NO3 and PO4 and ended up with both Ostreopsis and Prorocentrum Dino’s. Got things back on track and need to dose NO3 and PO4 to keep a steady 10ppm and 0.1ppm.

 

[all2insane]

I run a sps dominant tank and have no problem with sps coloring. My hanna nitrate HR and phosphorus ULR has always registered zero. Tank is close to 18 months old now and I still have sprinkles of hair algae here and there that I remove weekly through wc.

 

[Janet Belanger]

Not too many years ago it was a common belief that your tank should be as clean of nutrients as possible! I made the mistake and what ensued was a 1+ year of dino hell!

+1... I lost entire 5 year old colonies of sps, lps, fish and most softies because of dinos. The heartbreak and frustration almost broke me. I finally "won" a few weeks ago but I can tell it's still fragile in there.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

+1... I lost entire 5 year old colonies of sps, lps, fish and most softies because of dinos. The heartbreak and frustration almost broke me. I finally "won" a few weeks ago but I can tell it's still fragile in there.

The fact there where dino's overruling the rest should have been a warning; Outbrakes of typical growth, any type of growth, is a messenger and is most likely not the cause. Dinos, diatoms , cyano, etc. if one of them easily overrules the others, then an unbalance has been created. You say it was because of dinos you lost live stock but most probably it was because of what caused the dino's being able to suppressing competitors. In most cases such conditions are created using chemical absorbers . Some dino's may contain a lot of toxins ( Ostreopsis) but most overruling dino's present in aquaria seem to be heterotropic, retrieving phosphate from PAO, phosphate accumulating bacteria, thriving in phosphorus limited conditions, conditions in which other organisms can not compete.
Symbiodinium of corals are also dinos. Battling dino's with chemicals killing them? Or reinstalling normal natural conditions allowing competition.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Definitely overfiltered via large fuge, slightly oversized skimmer, and reactor that was running GFO. Bottomed out NO3 and PO4 and ended up with both Ostreopsis and Prorocentrum Dino’s. Got things back on track and need to dose NO3 and PO4 to keep a steady 10ppm and 0.1ppm.

How a fuge ( refugium with algae?) is able to overfilter the system? A fuge ( photo-autotrophic) not actively managed just will use what is left over by faster growing organisms. My opinion a fuge can never be too large, this if it is actively managed, maintaining the growth rate needed at all times.
Certain dinoflagellates (Prorocentrum spp)) are epiphytic on seagrasses and do produce the toxin okadaic acid, which can be a tumor promoter for seagrass consuming organisms. How do you know you had both Ostreopsis and Prorocentrum Dino’s? What about all others? How did you bottom out NO3 and PO4? Is the reason for having dino's linked to the low nitrate and phosphate level or to the method used to bottom out some nutrients creating a nutrient unbalance favorable for the growth of dinos. Did you use growth to clear the water of nutrients ( having a fuse) or did you just focus on nitrate and or phosphorus only ( GFO)? Having a large fuge it should have been easy to remove most nutrients by growth, allowing competition. Adding nitrate and phosphorus only, how do you see the future keeping on doing this?
If the water is cleared of nutrients using photo-autotrophic growth competition is allowed. What I do not untherstand is the combination of promoting photo-autotrophic growth to clear the water using a fuge and running GFO, limiting growth and leaving all other essential nutrients behind, only usable for PAO having build up a phosphorus reserve, this until the reserve is used up ( promoting selective growth in a small biotope). How the growth rate in the fuge was maintained because I would expect the algae to die off?

 

[Janet Belanger]

The fact there where dino's overruling the rest should have been a warning; Outbrakes of typical growth, any type of growth, is a messenger and is most likely not the cause. Dinos, diatoms , cyano, etc. if one of them easily overrules the others, then an unbalance has been created. You say it was because of dinos you lost live stock but most probably it was because of what caused the dino's being able to suppressing competitors. In most cases such conditions are created using chemical absorbers . Some dino's may contain a lot of toxins ( Ostreopsis) but most overruling dino's present in aquaria seem to be heterotropic, retrieving phosphate from PAO, phosphate accumulating bacteria, thriving in phosphorus limited conditions, conditions in which other organisms can not compete.
Symbiodinium of corals are also dinos. Battling dino's with chemicals killing them? Or reinstalling normal natural conditions allowing competition.

Dinos broke out likely due to imbalance of phos yes. Corals showed no signs of distress until RTN several months into dino battle. All were still beautiful coloration until RTN one after another colonies of acro, softies covered in dinos and last to go was LPS just a few months ago. Deaths included fish and inverts that feed on fauna like tang and lawnmower blenny. One day fat and healthy the next day dead, like dominoes. No snails, very few hermits survived. I had and have no chemical filtration, only a skimmer and chaeto with very rare water changes. A year+ battle to rid of the dino (appeared to be two different types) leveraging heavy feeding and manual removal through siphoning into ultra fine filter sock in the sump, and random 3 day black outs to knock them back.

New frags since dinos are gone, so far seem to have the beginnings of a happy reef again. No new frags even tried to live during the battle.

One can assume its not a battle won overnight because very few report fast eradication of dinos, but then it would seem as healthy fauna takes over again, new frags would have tried or even thrived close to the end of my dino battle. None did. So still seems like the cause of many deaths.