How harmful to nature are we being

[NotFishyFishGuy]

By getting new fish and new corals that are wild caught, we are obviously harming the ecosystem. However, when you think about it, even captive bred were from wild caught fish. These fish are being completely removed from nature meaning less food for some of their predators and too much of their prey. Although most people now buy captive bred, there are still many people that use wild fish wild corals and even natural saltwater. And when you think about it, these fish aren’t exactly getting much freedom in our tanks either. Most tanks may look clean and big but in the wild, even the smallest fish may like to swim and get a new look everyday. My dream tank would be a 5000 gallon tank with just a few fish, just enough for a 30 gallon. This would replicate their natural habitat with more space to roam and explore. Though it may seem like they would never swim through all of it it would probably be better for them. What do you guys think about our hobby?

 

[Timfish]

I'm afraid your dream tank wouldn't be any where close to what happens in nature. Research like this one of the Norther Line Islands give a fish biomass of roughly a pound per square yard. Research like the Northern Line Islands also is showing the biggest short term threat to reefs is not acidification or warming but overfishing of large preditors and large herbivores (think big parrotfish, not small tangs).

As far a s swimming space I have to say you are grossly oversimplifying it. We really need species specific data on what is required for a fish to live stress free, if that is even a viable consideration in the presence of conspecific competitors and preditors. Based on what I've seen over the decades I strongly suspect the amount of swimming space varies considerably by species and many of our tanks likely have more volume than the some of species we keep would utilize, but again the need for species specific data. And some fish have very short life expectancies in the wild (like species with supermales whose life expectancies can be measured in months) while their aquarium maintained counterparts have life expectancies measured in years, I realize I may be anthropomorphising but that strikes me as a plus not a minus. As for myself, since I have fish outliving their wild counterparts and swim leasurely around thier environment with no signs of stereotypy behavior I'm confident I'm treating them humanly.

One of the problems with legislation trying to protect wildlife is it can eliminate the economic incentive for preserving wildlife and/or it can create legislation that does not put the ecosystem first which is absolutely essential for the survival of any species. (Hawai'i is an excellent example where Yellow Tangs are taking over protected areas reducing species diversity, namely outcompeting Achillis Tangs whose numbers have been dropping in protected areas since they were created.)

 

[VR28man]

This is a subject I'm very interested, and which I've written a decent amount about in this forum and others.*

Overall, I don't buy that the hobby and import industry do harm to coral reefs, IF collection is done responsibly, and solely with small nets, and there's due regard for animal welfare in the collection and shipping process (to say nothing about by the end user!)

We all know that a healthy reef tank or coral reef can definitely stand to have frags taken on occasion. (and yes, coral reefs in general are in trouble, but there are plenty that are still in good shape. And human intervention can keep them in good shape, I think). And besides, maricultured coral farms, destination country aquaculture (e.g. ORA) and local frags have huge economic advantages over harvesting wild corals. I see wild colonies essentially as either premium colonies or brood stock for mariculture and aquaculture.

Similar goes for fish: if juvenile fish are collected solely by hand net (no cyanide!), are cared for well in short transit to a distributor and flown promptly to their destination, with catch quotas typical for both commercial or recreational fishing if sustainability is a concern, I don't think it will have any significant impact on the environment/coral reefs/etc. That means, collection in the Big Island of Hawaii, Australia, or Walt Smith's operation in Fiji are great - responsible collection, good enforcement, a quick trip to a well run holding facility, direct flights to destination country distributors in Asia, Europe, and North America. However, the process for wild Banggai cardinals - fisherman in Banggai catches them, gives them to local distributor, local distributor sails them 8 some hours away to Sulawesi, they go from Sulawesi to Bali, and from Bali to destination country - is much more problematic, especially since that fishery still has overharvesting, in-transit loss, cyanide, and even explosive fishing problems.


* perhaps my rant that I like the most follows:

(response to an article about how bad ornamental fish collection is)

First, there is a problem with the supply chain. The stereotypical one goes from collector to small island to major depot, thru major airports to LA wholesalers, and from there to the LFS. The potential for death in all of this is enormous. People have been saying that big wholesalers like Quality Marine - despite its claimed efforts to improve the supply chain - have more and more diseased fish. I would like to have a much more direct collector-to-consumer relationship, that is I would like to purchsae from the collector if at all possible. This is why I generally highly recommend KP Aquatics, an excellent Florida collector. I would pay good money for similar services from a collector in the East Pacific.

Second, buying fish that have been cyanided, etc. is 100% wrong. Further, there should be a very careful reckoning of what fish are suitable for aquarium use, and which ones are not due to diet, etc. This is not new; John Tullock's book "The Natural Reef Aquarium" had a whole chapter on this ("net-caught or nothing"), which unfortunately is not remotely dated. [emoji20]

All that being said, this kind of anti-aquarium argument is ultimately silly. Not to even hit the points it raises, which have been refuted above:

- the number of species purchased for the aquarium hobby is a very small percentage of the total fish on a given coral reef (to say nothing of the broader ocean). And as we know, careful coral collection is 100% sustainable. (though of course cutting huge swaths of stuff willy nilly and throwing it in bags without any care for its survival is not)

- aquarium collection is very low in things that "harm" a coral reef - again, unless it's done poorly with no regard for sustainability). Local pollution, damage from careless boating or non-aquarium fishing, warming, even using live rock for local buildings is far more "dangerous" than aquarium collecting. (I'll never forget a picture I saw from some south pacific nation where they were hauling a giant boulder- what we'd call "premium live rock" - out of the ocean to be used as builing material.

[very uncommon species like the Banggai cardinal are an exception: at least last I heard, it was rapidly overfished to the point of being rare in its native waters. But then, either intentionally or IMO more likely just as a byproduct of fishermen throwing out marginal specimens that recover, it was introduced into areas it's not native to and is doing well.]

- which gets to another point: collection of coral reef fish for local human consumption kills way more reef fish that aquarium collecting. I am told that the export of live reef fish and inverts for dinner tables in East Asia (i.e. China - and mind you I am Chinese) far outweighs export of live fish for aquaria. (and if one banned the export of life reef fish for East Asian consumption, it would, like drugs, cause the price of smuggled food fishes to rise astronomically. And besides, I know of no coral reef country that's banned export of live reef animals to China for food, as much as some of them posture about aquarium fish, because that trade is larger and is worth much more money than aquarium fish)

- ORA, Sustainable aquatics, etc. have AFAIK basically crowded out the market for wild collected clownfish. There are numerous small Australian coral farms for apparently the local reef market, and coral farms in other countries supply a good amount of US coral imports. Of course, not every fish is at comparable levels of aquarium demand/suitability, so I think we will never be at the point where it's reasonable to captive grown every single species. (I'd also say that some species - e.g. lawnmower blennies - are not nearly as common captive bred as I would like). But I think it's practical to get maybe 66% of the way there, now. (and there are a lot of wild caught species that IMO should be caught in much smaller numbers because they're not anywhere near as suitable in an aquarium as their rampant easy availability suggests they should be -.e.g Yellow Tangs)

- Finally, the ethics thing is just a rabbit hole. Ultimately, a store must treat these animals (as well as parrot, parakeets, even dogs and cats) as livestock. And before one hem-and-haws about that, I would ask why would one hold a dog owner to task, while ignoring the conditions of farm animals? For an aquatic parallel, where does the cut off come - why is it acceptable that 100% of oysters harvested in the chesapeake bay die within a few days of harvest and the industry has a waste percentage of (made up number) 10%, but that, say, 10% of yellow tangs don't survive the collector-to-Ifs process? Why is it acceptable for me to kill thousands of newborn brine shrimp at fish feeding time, while PETA and Sea Shepherd laments the loss of any fish in an aquarium?

Also, I don't buy the "fish would be happier in the sea" argument. Assuming a (subjectively) decent quality of sustenance, space, habitat can be provided for the fish, I think anything is fair game. Clownfish in the wild do not stray far from their host anemones because they are not suitable as general reef fish. Royal grammas do not grow that big and stay IVO a given cave. Similar with lawnmower blennies. The criteria need to be changed for each species. (this is why I'm a member of the tang police). Finally, each fish produces 1000s of fry over its lifetime; if you have much more than 3 of those fry survive to reproduce, the species will take over the reef. I don't see why, when 1000s of fish die in the wild before having the chance to reproduce, one would make a big deal of a paltry percentage of those that end up in aquaria.

Now, I can't abide sterotypical factory farming of pigs, and even though they of course in the end they are eaten anyway, I pay a premium for "non factory farmed organic", etc. meat when at all possible. I am completely against pet abuse and am fine with strict laws against abusers - I can't abide that someone has done the horrible things you'd see if you googled "cat abuse" to something as sweet as my Harriet. Likewise, I check the source of my fish and corals as much as I can to ensure they're from decent suppliers, and I think carefully if/how my aquarium can reasonably allow something like their wild habits.

Harriet:

 

[EMeyer]

This discussion seem to miss the concept of sustainable harvest. No, harvesting wild fish or corals or live rock does not necessarily harm the ecosystem. Only if the harvest is greater than the excess production. I am very skeptical that any hobby related harvests even come close.

 

[EMeyer]

I see someone else beat me to it well said

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Interesting conversation. Bumping it up to see more input

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

This discussion seem to miss the concept of sustainable harvest. No, harvesting wild fish or corals or live rock does not necessarily harm the ecosystem. Only if the harvest is greater than the excess production. I am very skeptical that any hobby related harvests even come close.

With more people entering the hobby, there will be more demand. And we all know how slow coral grows lol.

 

[EMeyer]

There are a lot of corals in the world relative to the number of hobbyists.

Fir trees grow MUCH slower than corals, reaching full size after some 40-50 years. Acropora colonies reach full "harvest" size within 3-5. But we manage the timber industry in a completely sustainable way. No one worries about the damage we're doing to forests when they buy a piece of furniture (or a piece of paper) [at least they shouldnt, if they're well informed and thinking about it rationally]

In a fully farmed context, a better comparison would be fruit or nut trees, which produce a harvest within 3-5 years. No one worries about the damage we're doing to the apple population when we buy an apple in the grocery store.

The key is excess production. In a world where literally billions of new corals are produced each year through natural processes, I can't see how harvesting small numbers for the hobby is anything but trivial.

 

[Adventures In Reefing]

I agree completely with what a lot of everyone is saying. I support organizations like MOTE Marine whom have done amazing things in Florida. I live in Sarasota where they are located but thought I would share what they are doing.

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

There are a lot of corals in the world relative to the number of hobbyists.

Fir trees grow MUCH slower than corals, reaching full size after some 40-50 years. Acropora colonies reach full "harvest" size within 3-5. But we manage the timber industry in a completely sustainable way. No one worries about the damage we're doing to forests when they buy a piece of furniture (or a piece of paper) [at least they shouldnt, if they're well informed and thinking about it rationally]

In a fully farmed context, a better comparison would be fruit or nut trees, which produce a harvest within 3-5 years. No one worries about the damage we're doing to the apple population when we buy an apple in the grocery store.

The key is excess production. In a world where literally billions of new corals are produced each year through natural processes, I can't see how harvesting small numbers for the hobby is anything but trivial.

Another factor is the number of corals dying everyday. Most of them are do to pollution and boats or divers. Pollution is something that is almost hopeless and though many people, even me, try to do something about it, it is just too big of a problem. When diving, some people may not be properly informed and may touch or accidentally kick or sit on the coral colonies. Not too mention the amount of trash deadly to corals going in the ocean everyday.

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

I agree completely with what a lot of everyone is saying. I support organizations like MOTE Marine whom have done amazing things in Florida. I live in Sarasota where they are located but thought I would share what they are doing.

Wow that’s actually very cool. Are they only in Florida? 4Ocean is also a cool organization. They go out to the ocean and take out plastics. Now that I think about it, I think R2R should have something like this, something that the members can all be a part of around the world to help with this problem. That would be pretty cool

 

[Adventures In Reefing]

Wow that’s actually very cool. Are they only in Florida? 4Ocean is also a cool organization. They go out to the ocean and take out plastics. Now that I think about it, I think R2R should have something like this, something that the members can all be a part of around the world to help with this problem. That would be pretty cool

Yes they are based out of Sarasota Florida. You know that is a great idea I will head down there this weekend and see if they want to do something with us.

 

[ZoWhat]

By getting new fish and new corals that are wild caught, we are obviously harming the ecosystem.

Really? How so? If a wild fish wasn't conservatively wild caught...who's the say the fish isn't eaten the next day by a larger fish? Your wild caught fish would have had a longer life if caught.

I believe reef divers know it's not in their best interest to gather an entire colony from a natural reef. Nor to catch the entire school of fish they see. I would think they know that to have a revenue stream of income for years, they'd collect conservatively

I believe 3rd world governments are doing "the job" controlling exports bc ppl like us are yelling, "More! Cheaper! More, more, more!"....while they sit back and limit or even ban the export of a lot of things.

Seen the price of a Blue Hippo lately? 3times the price than 2 yrs ago and they're the size of a halfdollar....I believe bc their export has been severely limited

I cant even remember the last time I've seen a Purple Tang for sale.

Half the fish on LiveAquaria are listed as "Out Of Stock"

If wild caught fish and gathered corals are done responsibly, there's minimal effect IMO. Mother Nature is well equipped to resupply and reenergize an ecosystem

Cruise ships and Shipping fleets dumping toxic waste in the Worlds Oceans is more a concern to me.....

Newbies not being educated by LFS owners that put in massive amounts of fish and coral after a 30day cycle...which ends up a failure....is even more of a concern to me




.

 

[User1]

If it involves humans then we will surely screw it up. Plain and simple.

People have to eat. Some countries it is easier others not so much. The will to live will lead many to ignore rules, regulations, laws, etc. Catching one first on a reel is slow. Catching 20 in a net is faster. Catching 200 using dynamite is a 20x faster and provides more. See where this is going?

Time is money and cutting a drift net is faster and easier than putting on dive gear to untangle. Just buy another. See the cause and effect in play because that drift line is now causing a lot of damage to marine wildlife not to mention a place to collect garbage (see floating garbage mess in the news). This isn't even getting into human waste, agriculture, pesticides, and the good old word climate.

We can't agree, we are not ready for this conversation at the political level and hell we can't really talk about it at the dinner table. Collectively as a hobby we can self regulate and help by sharing frats at reasonable prices or free and treat the easier ones as crops. Fish are 50/50 and again we can do our part by paying the extra fee to help support breeders. The area in between is tough because people are making a living off of boutique corals with names. I don't like it but I under stand it and choose not to play in that space.

The rest we can do our part by being responsible and treat our hobby as a pet and not a commodity. That and situational awareness with how we manage our homes (conserve) and the rest falls into place. 1 does it, then 2, then 3. This is additive and as people get on bard we will see a difference.

Then Mother Earth can do the rest. She is a good, smart, woman. Most women are. it is the men who are the idiots...

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

Yes they are based out of Sarasota Florida. You know that is a great idea I will head down there this weekend and see if they want to do something with us.

Cool

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

Really? How so? If a wild fish wasn't conservatively wild caught...who's the say the fish isn't eaten the next day by a larger fish? Your wild caught fish would have had a longer life if caught.

I believe reef divers know it's not in their best interest to gather an entire colony from a natural reef. Nor to catch the entire school of fish they see. I would think they know that to have a revenue stream of income for years, they'd collect conservatively

I believe 3rd world governments are doing "the job" controlling exports bc ppl like us are yelling, "More! Cheaper! More, more, more!"....while they sit back and limit or even ban the export of a lot of things.

Seen the price of a Blue Hippo lately? 3times the price than 2 yrs ago and they're the size of a halfdollar....I believe bc their export has been severely limited

I cant even remember the last time I've seen a Purple Tang for sale.

Half the fish on LiveAquaria are listed as "Out Of Stock"

If wild caught fish and gathered corals are done responsibly, there's minimal effect IMO. Mother Nature is well equipped to resupply and reenergize an ecosystem

Cruise ships and Shipping fleets dumping toxic waste in the Worlds Oceans is more a concern to me.....

Newbies not being educated by LFS owners that put in massive amounts of fish and coral after a 30day cycle...which ends up a failure....is even more of a concern to me




.

That’s a good point the fish may die the nxt day. Pollution is also another thing I am concerned about. What if the fish are getting priced higher because there are less of them now? I definitely think we should get more captive bred fish

 

[samnaz]

I agree with you. I’ve committed myself to tank raised corals and invertebrates, I know it’s best for wild reefs and future hobbyists reefs alike.

Despite what many of us choose to believe, every purchase we make, it absolutely makes a difference. It may be small, minuscule in the scale of things, but nevertheless, it makes a difference.

If I had complete confidence in the exact process of collection for the wild livestock I purchased, I might consider it. But the truth is, I can never be sure. Most hobbyists can’t. And so for the time being, I will stick to aqua cultured and tank raised livestock.

 

[RCeiver]

This is a subject I'm very interested, and which I've written a decent amount about in this forum and others.*

Overall, I don't buy that the hobby and import industry do harm to coral reefs, IF collection is done responsibly, and solely with small nets, and there's due regard for animal welfare in the collection and shipping process (to say nothing about by the end user!)

We all know that a healthy reef tank or coral reef can definitely stand to have frags taken on occasion. (and yes, coral reefs in general are in trouble, but there are plenty that are still in good shape. And human intervention can keep them in good shape, I think). And besides, maricultured coral farms, destination country aquaculture (e.g. ORA) and local frags have huge economic advantages over harvesting wild corals. I see wild colonies essentially as either premium colonies or brood stock for mariculture and aquaculture.

Similar goes for fish: if juvenile fish are collected solely by hand net (no cyanide!), are cared for well in short transit to a distributor and flown promptly to their destination, with catch quotas typical for both commercial or recreational fishing if sustainability is a concern, I don't think it will have any significant impact on the environment/coral reefs/etc. That means, collection in the Big Island of Hawaii, Australia, or Walt Smith's operation in Fiji are great - responsible collection, good enforcement, a quick trip to a well run holding facility, direct flights to destination country distributors in Asia, Europe, and North America. However, the process for wild Banggai cardinals - fisherman in Banggai catches them, gives them to local distributor, local distributor sails them 8 some hours away to Sulawesi, they go from Sulawesi to Bali, and from Bali to destination country - is much more problematic, especially since that fishery still has overharvesting, in-transit loss, cyanide, and even explosive fishing problems.


* perhaps my rant that I like the most follows:


Harriet:

But collection isn’t currently done responsibly. We know that cyanide is used to some degree.

Having worked for an importer in LA for a very short time (it’s a horrid job), at least 50% of fish arrive dead or so seriously ill that they are culled. The remaining probably have a 50/50 chance of staying alive long enough to get shipped back out.

What are the percentages that die in the LFS and once people get them home?

I’d estimate that for every 1 fish that survives a year, there are 10 that probably didn’t make it.

We can and should do better, but that probably requires that a clownfish is sold for $30 instead of $15.

 

[ZoWhat]

What if the fish are getting priced higher because there are less of them now?

The way I understand it, higher fish prices are mostly due to:

* 3rd world governments putting heavy tariffs on exported live stock. They want a piece of the "action"

* 3rd world governments putting a BAN on live stock. I believe the Indonesian government still has a BAN on exporting....even though their waters are overflowing with fish and coral

Interesting read:

International Waters: Confusion and Frustration Still Reign Regarding Indonesian Corals

The coral crisis is not over, and Indonesian exporters have shed thousands of jobs and lost millions of dollars.

www.petproductnews.com

* increased shipping costs. I believe shipping cost have DOUBLED in just the last 5 yrs

* too many distributors down the supply chain. It's my understanding that everytime livestock is sold from one distributor to another from the Ocean to temporary holding warehouses to the LFS, the price DOUBLES on each transaction. Literally a $100 fish a LFS owner sells you cost them $50, the distributor bought it from an overseas vendor for $25....and so on and so on

(Many ppl have looked into "buying wholesale " but the way the industry works is you have to buy a MINIMUM of $1k to $2k to order a single order via Wholesalers)

 

[Robcope]

While I am by no means a tree hugger, I prefer fish that were bred in captivity and coral the same.

Why, it isn't that many right. BS there are people all over the world with reef tanks.

I know, this may make it hard to get some corals. Well, I may have to do without. Our reefs need to be protected as well as the animals that live there.

All my Discus were grown by breeders and they are awesome. Don't need to be able to say oooooh, look at him he came from the Amazon river.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound mean, but I guess I can't say it any other way. We need to protect these eco systems that look so beautiful during Shark Week.