How soon is too soon?

[Syoung]

So I started my cycle roughly about a week and a half ago, I used the Dr. Tims approach and needless to say it didn't go as described in their videos. Even though everyone says all tanks have their own personalities mine seemed to be in another dimension it seems. But I remained patient. My results.

for a solid week my ammonia was 2ppm give or take the color always seemed in between to my eye.
The past 5 days the ammonia was lowering 2ppm, 1.5ppm, .50ppm, .25ppm, and today 0ppm.
During that 5 day stretch my nitrite was at 1ppm, 2ppm, 5+ppm, 5+ppm, and today 5+ppm.
My Nitrate (tested only once yesterday) was at 30ppm again this is determined by my eye which seemed in between the 20ppm and 40ppm color scale.

270gal total water volume, tested with API test kits for now... yes I know.

So am I on pace? given the instructions by the instructional videos this is completely different than the average.

Would like to have some peace of mind that I'm headed in the right direction as it seems odd this is taking so long compared to the instructions.

I have a Montipora waiting at my LFS on hold... how soon is too soon after the cycle is complete?

I'd say you're on (loosely defined) average. The basic principle of Dr. Tim's is to increase the starter bacteria culture. Having a larger initial population gets you to your target bacteria population faster.

An indicator of when your tank is ready is when you can dose ammonia to 2ppm and have it reduced to 0ppm in 24 hours. So once your tank reaches 0ppm ammonia, dose to 2ppm again, and repeat this process until you hit the 2 to 0 in 24 hours.

Usually on the order of 4ish weeks, but pay more attention to the levels than the date.

 

[Syoung]

As for the Monti, it really depends. Most tanks go through the 'uglies' the first few months. Survival depends on how acute yours are, and how you tackle them.

In my tank, I had a diatom bloom (3 wks), followed by cyano (3 wks). I let them run their course, didn't attempt to treat them, and they burned out. I had a monti (placed ~1 month after cycle) that wasn't affected and has been growing well.

I would wait until you see the extent of the first stage of uglies, be that algae, diatoms, or more.

 

[Servillius]

Is “not before the third date” still good advice?

Kidding.

Way back when, the rule was six weeks. If you added stuff, it was still six weeks. If you used other stuff? Still six weeks. What if you went with something else? Six weeks.

That is no longer the case. The cycle we were waiting for can in fact be rushed these days. Since I use Zeovit, I use their two week cycle and it works. Others work too. My inclination is to pretend it’s going to take six weeks.

Actually given my experience at this point, I don’t think you’re really done cycling until you hit the first year. Maybe even two. I think a good rule of thumb is to follow the directions on a reputable product that we know works well. Keep stocking exceedingly light until you hit six weeks and stay fairly light for the first year.

 

[YHSublime]

Is “not before the third date” still good advice?

Kidding.

Way back when, the rule was six weeks. If you added stuff, it was still six weeks. If you used other stuff? Still six weeks. What if you went with something else? Six weeks.

That is no longer the case. The cycle we were waiting for can in fact be rushed these days. Since I use Zeovit, I use their two week cycle and it works. Others work too. My inclination is to pretend it’s going to take six weeks.

Actually given my experience at this point, I don’t think you’re really done cycling until you hit the first year. Maybe even two. I think a good rule of thumb is to follow the directions on a reputable product that we know works well. Keep stocking exceedingly light until you hit six weeks and stay fairly light for the first year.

Tony Vargas mentions in his book "From Inception to Completion" that the "European method" of cycling is waiting 90 days. I've tried my best to make it there on every tank, and closest I got was 70 days. That was one of my more successful tanks.

I don't even bother testing during a cycle. I hook up an ATO, let it ride, and do a large water change.

 

[BoomCorals]

You’d need to add fish before any coral. Add the fish and test for a couple weeks to ensure ammonia and nitrite remain at zero. You’ll need fish anyways if you want to keep coral.

 

[ericegg01]

So here is an update and I'm further confounded than I was before.

I waited for a few days to see what the nitrites would do after ammonia was consistent 0 for 3days, as previously stated my nitrites were 5+ppm very bright purple color. Now I must confess I come from the days where ammonia>>>nitrite>>>nitrate>>>to everything zero cycle done crowd. So if this ammonia dosing method deviates from that method then it's only fueling my confusion.

Anyway after waiting 3 days at 0 ammonia I dosed ammonia again but only to 1ppm not 2 as I didn't have enough for a full 30mL dose. It went to 1ppm in 24hours and took 2 days to hit zero. however my nitrites have never wavered and are still 5+ppm. This is confusing to me cause I don't understand why my nitrites are not coming down. My nitrates are at 40ppm as tested yesterday.

To answer the no fish question, I just don't want a lot of fish is all, like I said before maybe a few clowns but that is all. I understand the benefits but they also have their faults.

 

[Syoung]

So here is an update and I'm further confounded than I was before.

I waited for a few days to see what the nitrites would do after ammonia was consistent 0 for 3days, as previously stated my nitrites were 5+ppm very bright purple color. Now I must confess I come from the days where ammonia>>>nitrite>>>nitrate>>>to everything zero cycle done crowd. So if this ammonia dosing method deviates from that method then it's only fueling my confusion.

Anyway after waiting 3 days at 0 ammonia I dosed ammonia again but only to 1ppm not 2 as I didn't have enough for a full 30mL dose. It went to 1ppm in 24hours and took 2 days to hit zero. however my nitrites have never wavered and are still 5+ppm. This is confusing to me cause I don't understand why my nitrites are not coming down. My nitrates are at 40ppm as tested yesterday.

It's working!

Every cycle is different. Some tanks with high initial populations of nitrobacter can immediately process the nitrite created from nitrosomonas. In your case, the nitrite to nitrate is going slower, but will equalize with time.

Your tank is cycling well. Give it a few more days to process the nitrite, then re-dose ammonia and update us.

 

[Syoung]

Now I must confess I come from the days where ammonia>>>nitrite>>>nitrate>>>to everything zero cycle done crowd.

From the above, are you expecting the nitrates to also go to zero during this cycle?

 

[ericegg01]

From the above, are you expecting the nitrates to also go to zero during this cycle?

That is what I'm used to, yes.

Believe it or not I still have my log books from my 55 and 90... in the 3rd week my ammonia was 0 and my nitrites were @4ppm. 3-4days later the nitrites were at 0 and my nitrates were 50ppm. Then 5th week nitrates were 0 and I did 30% water changed waited a week then introduced fish.

 

[Syoung]

That is what I'm used to, yes.

Believe it or not I still have my log books from my 55 and 90... in the 3rd week my ammonia was 0 and my nitrites were @4ppm. 3-4days later the nitrites were at 0 and my nitrates were 50ppm. Then 5th week nitrates were 0 and I did 30% water changed waited a week then introduced fish.

Did you run a DSB in previous tanks? Unless anaerobic bacteria has room to work (DSB or a very large quantity of microporous live rock), noticable nitrate removal usually depends on an outside method, such as water changes, ATS, macro, ect.

 

[ericegg01]

I wouldn't call it a DSB but it was pretty close, I also had ugly rock walls in the 2 DT's. This go around I'm shooting for the triton method, or another of the "new" methods. I have a sump tank which is 30% of my DT's volume which will house all the algae as per their instructions. I have very few rock in the DT about 80lbs, but will buy another 10-20lbs to seed once cycle is done. I have a large micropure block in my additional sump tank.

Again previous results vary I understand this, and this new tank is a much larger volume than my previous tanks, but I wouldn't think the parameters and the process would vary so profoundly as I'm seeing today. It's just perplexing me is all as I'm not used to it and I'm trying to talk myself into something being wrong I fear.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

sorry... it's all dead rock, everything I've read said not to ammonia dose with cured rock.


It's a well developed Monti which was exactly what I was looking for, I couldn't let it go to another, luckily I have a good relationship with my LFS and he can hang on to it for awhile. I do not want a "fish" tank, I want strictly coral, maybe 2 clowns but that is all. I figure once my nitrates hit a low point I can then introduce, my LFS uses all blue and I may do the same but your comment on brightness is noted and will watch for that.

You're going to hit a nitrate low point very soon with a coral only 270g. You might want to plan out a fish load now because you're going to be going that route sooner than you think. How do you plan on feeding the corals? Once you're cycled and assuming you're using RODI your levels will essentially be zero. Calc, alk and mag is not enough to actually feed corals.

My first two tanks I tried to move fast just like you did; was a constant uphill battle and I killed alot of easy to grow corals in the process (lots of wasted $$$). On my most recent tank I was patient and my cycle took over 3 months and it was night and day compared to the other two (for the better).

 

[ericegg01]

Respectfully: I am NOT rushing, as stated earlier I'm merely concerned at the time it is taking my tank to cycle as it is advertised otherwise, I just needed a sanity check is all. The question I posed about the Montipora is how soon after the cycle I can add it. I have normally added fish before coral in the past. I don't want fish, I can feed the coral by dosing other nutrients or spot feeding.

Here is why I'm questioning where my cycle is at. I'm not rushing. I was sold a bill of goods which has not materialized for my case I get that, I understand not all are created equal however my scenario is the complete opposite of what I have been told. I've been at 5+ppm nitrite for over 10 days a far cry away from a claimed 24hrs!!!

"Wait 24 hrs and measure ammonia, nitrite and pH. Record on the chart below - this is day 2. On day 3 add another drop of ammonia per gallon of aquarium water. Measure and record water quality for 2 more days. On Day 6 add another drop of ammonium chloride per gallon of aquarium water. Measure water quality on Days 7 & 8 - in most cases at this point ammonia and nitrite will be zero or below 0.5. Congrats! Your tank is cycled - now you can add some fish and enjoy your aquarium! Follow the schedule on the chart below ending with your first biweekly 25% water change."

"*Precautions - Do not add ammonia until you get a reading of 2 ppm NH3-N. Do not add ammonia everyday. If the pH drops below 7 perform a 25-30% water change taking the water from near the top of the water column. Do not disturb the substrate or remove the filter pad. If the ammonia or nitrite values are over 5 ppm NH3-N skip the next addition of ammonia drops."

I'm starting to believe or make myself believe that something is wrong... I do hope this puts the "stop rushing" talk back in the closet because it's the furthest thing from the truth.

 

[JMetaxas]

I started a Dr. Tim's cycle 4 days ago in a 65 gallon tank, with dead rock and "live" sand by Caribsea.

Dosed bacteria on Monday, had 2ppm Ammonia and .05 or less nitrite on day 2. Day 3 1/2 showed the same Ammonia and nitrite.

I emailed Dr. Tim's and they said to dose half the ammonia (2 drops per gallon) today. He mentioned something about stalling the cycle and how I need to start seeing the Nitrite increase.............................

 

[Flexin]

Email Dr. Tim.

 

[ericegg01]

I just might do that... but in the end I may just have to have it run its course and chalk it up as another lesson learned.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

So here is an update and I'm further confounded than I was before.

I waited for a few days to see what the nitrites would do after ammonia was consistent 0 for 3days, as previously stated my nitrites were 5+ppm very bright purple color. Now I must confess I come from the days where ammonia>>>nitrite>>>nitrate>>>to everything zero cycle done crowd. So if this ammonia dosing method deviates from that method then it's only fueling my confusion.

Anyway after waiting 3 days at 0 ammonia I dosed ammonia again but only to 1ppm not 2 as I didn't have enough for a full 30mL dose. It went to 1ppm in 24hours and took 2 days to hit zero. however my nitrites have never wavered and are still 5+ppm. This is confusing to me cause I don't understand why my nitrites are not coming down. My nitrates are at 40ppm as tested yesterday.

To answer the no fish question, I just don't want a lot of fish is all, like I said before maybe a few clowns but that is all. I understand the benefits but they also have their faults.

First, disregard that nitrate number until your nitrites are zero. Some nitrate test kits give false high readings if there is nitrite in the water.

Second, the bacteria that consume nitrite take much longer to multiply than the bacteria that consume ammonia. I would use a higher range test kit to see what your nitrite really is and I wouldn't dose any more ammonia until I see the nitrite go down. You could stall your cycle if you keep dosing before nitrites spike. The amount you have dosed so far should be safe.

Finally, you are on your way given that you are seeing nitrite and possibly nitrate (again, the test may be a false reading). I use the Red Sea Nitrate/Nitrite test kit. I only test nitrate, but if anything seems off in the tank without an explanation, I will do a nitrite test as well to see if the cycle is working as it should.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ericegg01]

As of today

@0ppm Ammonia
<0.25ppm Nitrites
</= 40ppm Nitrates

Question remains should I hit the tank with another dose of ammonia to 2ppm and see what happens or should I just wait another 14days (which is what I'm leaning towards). I'm thinking about seeding my LFS live rock and turning on the sump lights to start algae growth?

At least I'm seeing some progress and I'm no longer on the ledge...

 

[IslandLifeReef]

If you are going to dose any more ammonia, I would do it now. Waiting won't accomplish anything with the numbers you have. Dose to 2ppm and see how long it takes the tank to get back to 0ppm. If it goes to 0ppm in 24hrs or less, the cycle is done.:)

Once your nitrites reach 0ppm, I would check nitrates. If you have only dosed a total of 5ppm of ammonia, your nitrates should be less than 30ppm after the cycle. Any nitrite reading greater than 0ppm can cause false high nitrate test readings.

 

[ericegg01]

After 3 days of 0ppm on ammonia, nitrite and with my Nitrate@10ppm, I waited another 4 days to test everything and made sure my parameters were stable. I put 5 small fish in 2 Ocellaris clowns, and 3 very frustrating green chromis which renewed my unwillingness to put fish in this tank.

In essence I'm back in business, thx to R2R for assisting in the healing process.