How to manage nitrate trending down and phosphates going up effectively?

[Alexander1312]

I have seen my nitrates going down and are now at 1.5 ppm, while my Phosphates have been going up, now at 0.19 ppm, except when intervening with Phosban. I switched to Carbon Dosing recently using first NP Bacto Balance and then Elimi NP, but with the Nitrates continuing to decline, I wonder if I should stop doing that?

Two other things I am doing which I assume impact the nitrate trend is dosing daily 1ml / gallon Phytoplankton, and weekly 1ml / gallon PNS Pro Bio.

Everything seems to look healthy but I would like to get Phosphates to 0.1 or slightly lower, and Nitrates to not lower than 2ppm if possible.

Any advice or suggested changes would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

Nitrate and Phosphate are measured with Hanna checkers and Phosphate occassionally verified with Red Sea Phosphate Pro.


Nitrate

Phosphate

 

[blaxsun]

Leave nitrates as is (5-10ppm is desirable) and GFo for the phosphates.

 

[reefluvrr]

How big is your tank and how much Elimini NP are you dosing?

I have been using Tropic Marin Elimni NP for over three years with great success. I also use PNS Probio periodically.

Honestly I use much more than the recommended dosage of Elimni NP than the directions with no bacterial bloom as a result.
It is all about how much carbon to Nitrogen to PO4 is being used when carbon dosing.

You still have some Nitrate/Nitrogen source to help reduce your phosphate levels. You may not have enough carbon source thus you can try increasing your Elimni NP dose.

Hopefully this will then reduce your PO4 level to your desirable level. If your Nitrates bottom out and your PO4 is still not to your desired level; then you may have to dose a Nitrogen source such as amino acids, Nitrates, etc.

 

[Alexander1312]

Leave nitrates as is (5-10ppm is desirable) and GFo for the phosphates.

GFO does not work well for me to lower phosphate because I do not have a reactor (just a bag in the sump). Lanthanum chloride works best, highly diluted compared to their directions, but I did not like adding this in regularly, so I switched to carbon dosing.

 

[bushdoc]

You are dosing carbon, so primarily it will reduce nitrates and it might have some secondary effect on reducing phosphates. You are though dosing phytoplankton, adding more phosphates. Sooner or later, with continued carbon dosing your nitrates will be undetectable, but phosphates will stay at some level. If you don't want to use Lanthanum and don't have reactor for GFO, refugium or algae reactor/scrubber might be solution for you.

 

[Alexander1312]

How big is your tank and how much Elimini NP are you dosing?

I have been using Tropic Marin Elimni NP for over three years with great success. I also use PNS Probio periodically.

Honestly I use much more than the recommended dosage of Elimni NP than the directions with no bacterial bloom as a result.
It is all about how much carbon to Nitrogen to PO4 is being used when carbon dosing.

You still have some Nitrate/Nitrogen source to help reduce your phosphate levels. You may not have enough carbon source thus you can try increasing your Elimni NP dose.

Hopefully this will then reduce your PO4 level to your desirable level. If your Nitrates bottom out and your PO4 is still not to your desired level; then you may have to dose a Nitrogen source such as amino acids, Nitrates, etc.

Thank you. 26 gallons only, and I started 8 days ago with the 0.1 ml daily dose. My question was, if I increase the amount to e.g. 0.2 ml, would this bottom out my nitrate? Appreciate the comment on aminos, which is something I wanted to do but have not done yet.

 

[Alexander1312]

You are dosing carbon, so primarily it will reduce nitrates and it might have some secondary effect on reducing phosphates. You are though dosing phytoplankton, adding more phosphates. Sooner or later, with continued carbon dosing your nitrates will be undetectable, but phosphates will stay at some level. If you don't want to use Lanthanum and don't have reactor for GFO, refugium or algae reactor/scrubber might be solution for you.

The claim is that Live Phyto does not increase Phosphate (Dinkins), so it does increase Phosphate?

Also, the Elmi NP is meant to reduce Phosphate primarily, but seems as if it still reduces Nitrates heavily as you say.

Agree on the Algae reactor, but I currently have no space for this, but this seems to be the best 'natural' solution.

 

[bushdoc]

I would not take all claims of certain manufacturers too literally. My lifetime experience thought me that.Also, very few corals has even ability to digest phytoplankton (gorgonians, goniopora and some others), so unless you are trying to feed pods or you have non photosyntetic gorgonian tank, most of your corals will not benefit from it.

 

[reefluvrr]

0.2 ml, would this bottom out my nitrate

It may or may not bottom out your nitrate. Right now your carbon source (elimni NP) bottomed out before it can reduce more of your PO4. Think of it like a chemical equation. Thus if your Nitrate bottom out, you likely will have to use a Nitrogen source to help keep the equation going to help reduce PO4.

 

[Alexander1312]

I would not take all claims of certain manufacturers too literally. My lifetime experience thought me that.Also, very few corals has even ability to digest phytoplankton (gorgonians, goniopora and some others), so unless you are trying to feed pods or you have non photosyntetic gorgonian tank, most of your corals will not benefit from it.

I agree not to rely on their claims, I guess I was just curious if Live Phyto (without any additives) increases Phosphate, more from a reef chemistry perspective.

I do have a few gonis that I would like to continue to do well, and yes, I would also like to keep a healthy pod population, and I still dose them monthly, but I am planning to reduce the Phyto for now..

Thank you for sharing your insight - the Phyto dosing started when I had Dinos about 6 months ago and that combined with the Pods seemed to have helped, but I possibly need far less than 1ml / gallon so I am going down to 0.5 ml / gallon for now.

 

[Alexander1312]

It may or may not bottom out your nitrate. Right now your carbon source (elimni NP) bottomed out before it can reduce more of your PO4. Think of it like a chemical equation. Thus if your Nitrate bottom out, you likely will have to use a Nitrogen source to help keep the equation going to help reduce PO4.

Understand now, thank you. I guess I would not like for Nitrate to go further down than where it is - I had not yet Cyano to this date.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree not to rely on their claims, I guess I was just curious if Live Phyto (without any additives) increases Phosphate, more from a reef chemistry perspective.

I do have a few gonis that I would like to continue to do well, and yes, I would also like to keep a healthy pod population, and I still dose them monthly, but I am planning to reduce the Phyto for now..

Thank you for sharing your insight - the Phyto dosing started when I had Dinos about 6 months ago and that combined with the Pods seemed to have helped, but I possibly need far less than 1ml / gallon so I am going down to 0.5 ml / gallon for now.

I do not think there is a general answer for that as I expect it depends on what happens to the phyto. If it is eaten, most of its nutrients are released again. If it is skimmed out or removed in some other way, they won’t be.

 

[Boehmtown]

I swapped my foods around and started dosing more phyto. It's not perfect but it keeps enough in my tank for me not to worry. I use like micro grams of gfo to knock down my phosphates

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use like micro grams of gfo to knock down my phosphates

lol

Do you break up a single GFO particle into smaller bits to get a microgram?

 

[jda]

The nitrates going down is likley a product of anoxic bacteria growing in your sand and rocks. This happens as tanks mature and is quite normal. Even if you get down to below 1.0 no3, there is little chance that your corals are staved for nitrogen if you keep feeding well. Nitrogen can be had from ammonia, nitrite and also the nitrate (if necessary but it is not preferred for most things) before the oxygen-free parts of the sand and rocks turn the nitrate into nitrogen gas.

If the above is what is happening, then dosing nitrate will grow a larger population of anoxic bacteria to consume the extra nitrates. Dosing no3 will not likely do anything except deliver a different number on a test kit. Dosing ammonia can get more available nitrogen to the things in your tank, but you don't likely need it if you are feeding well.

As for the po4, you have to determine what level you want. It sounds like you will need media (GFO, Al Oxide, Lanthanum Chloride), a fuge or more protein skimming to reduce it, or all three.

If you are feeding well, then don't worry about nitrate and just monitor phosphates enough so that they don't get too high.

 

[zoomonster]

I have a pretty heavily stocked mixed reef with lots of fish and my nutrients are usually pretty high. Likewise, I have a still maturing replacement refugium and I have been using a bio pellet reactor (useless IMO). I started using elimi-np and its working but mostly on nitrates with phosphate much slower to fall even using GFO. Of course, the tank is fed pretty heavy and gets phyto. Regardless the tank is thriving and no algae problems other than usual glass stuff.

If you read about elimi-np is does specify constraints on the Redfield ratio at 10:1 or better. My ratio is totally out of whack at 115 (Redfield calculator) and trying to get under control. Pretty sure it's going to require a lot more GFO.

 

[Boehmtown]

lol

Do you break up a single GFO particle into smaller bits to get a microgram?

seems like it sometimes, I think I'm more afraid of a swing in phosphates than alk.

 

[Alexander1312]

Unfortunately, my nitrates are now at 0.0, while my phosphates slightly increased to 0.22 (up from 0.19).

I increased the daily dosing amount for Elimi NP from 0.1 ml /100l to 0.2 ml /100l, which most likely contributed to/caused this issue. Also, it proved that this product is more effective in reducing Nitrates than eliminating Phosphates, at least in the short term.

Therefore, I am in emergency mode and must raise nitrates while still trying to reduce phosphates ASAP (relatively speaking).

Can you please let me know if the below sound reasonable actions:

1. Dose Nitrates with a supplement. I will choose Brightwell Neonitro (seems as if this is a reliable product).
2. Take off the skimmer cup until Nitrates are at a reasonable level - for me, 2-10 seems fine when I had that and looking at corals. Will this still reduce my Phosphates?
3. Restart dosing of Phosban (Lanthanum Chloride). I have been using a very low amount over several days and had good short-term results in the past, typically reducing them by 0.08 ppm in 4 days.
4. Water change - should I stop water changes until Nitrate is back up?
5. Phytoplankton? Stop dosing 5 times a week? Until Nitrate is back up?
6. PNS Pro Bio? Stop dosing once a week? Until Nitrates is back up?

Thank you!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’d recommend food grade sodium or calcium nitrate over the expensive Brightwell product that lacks a purity assurance.

 

[Alexander1312]

I’d recommend food grade sodium or calcium nitrate over the expensive Brightwell product that lacks a purity assurance.

Sodium Nitrate ⊘ Non-GMO Gluten-Free Vegan OU Kosher Certified - 400g/14oz https://a.co/d/1SAajDB

Thank you. Is this the correct quality? Is there a calculator to determine the correct amount?