How to raise my nutrients?

[bobnicaragua]

Set your skimmer to skim even drier, where it barely produces.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I’d feed more or dose, but I’m not a fan of either neonitro or neophos. They are expensive, dilute, and of unknown composition/purity.

Food grade sodium or calcium nitrate and sodium phosphate are my recommendation. You can get them from Amazon or Loudwolf.

Because the exact reason you indicated, I really just want to get my nutrients into a detectable range. Right now, my system is exporting faster than I am putting in. I am not worried about dinos/cyanos.
Can I just pee in my tank....

The tank is coming up on a year. It doesn’t act like it though, everything is exploding! I have to play "who is going to war this week" Gone are the days when water changes and a bit of kalk and AFR was enough.

Are you still adding plus NP? Have you added any today?

I'm only asking because I was going to get the balance NP running in my tank this morning. And here we are again playing where did my phosphate go game. Tested twice and came back with the zero. Added 1.1 ml of plus NP and waited 30 minutes and got a reading of 12 ppb phosphorus. The nitrate has dropped from 2.1 down to 1.4. so I will be adding some calcium nitrate this evening and be checking my numbers again in the morning to see if anything sticks. I'm going to follow your thread in hopes of learning something new.

I was speaking with Lou Ekus this morning and we had a great chat. The one thing I asked him was about water changes and if I should cease doing them and he replied back saying no, keep up your regular water changes.

I changed 10% of mine a week but he suggested maybe changing 20% in 2 or 3 weeks but don't just stop doing water changes in hopes of bringing your nutrients up. Really that's about all the info that I can pass along at the moment.

 

[ElementReefer]

I was at a point last year, when my tank was about a year old, where I could not get N or P to stay up past zero. I went through a whole bottle of NeoPhos and NeoNitro which only helped temporarily. I believe the ultimate solution was adding a couple more fish, letting my existing fish grow up, and time.

Be advised that simpler life (algae, bacteria) will suck up N and P faster than coral every time. I would only dose them in pursuit of a particular goal. They truly are not goals in and of themselves. If your coral are growing and you have only limited algae and no pests, there is no clinical (versus laboratory) reason to dose N and P. Try more food, or add bioload.

Finally I would not skip your small, regular water changes. Tank inhabitants appear to appreciate water changes regardless of nutrient levels.

 

[ElementReefer]

Contrary to popular belief, 0 nutrients will absolutely produce Dinoflagelates. You'll want your Nitrates around 12 or so and your phosphates around 0.03 to 0.10 on the upper end. Take it slow and let them build.

About 5ml a day of NeoNitro and NeoPhos will bring it up slowly. Just measure daily and see whrer you are them you can see how much you're consuming daily.

IMHO, this is an ironic comment! Zero nutrients will produce…nothing. I think people in the hobby rely sometimes on a bit of magical thinking. Like dinoflagellates live only on light and water, and are lurking in our tanks waiting for that dreaded zero nutrients.

Dinos need N and P like all other life. They are aggressive photosynthesizers, but the opportunity they are waiting for is dysbiosis (microorganism imbalance), not low nutrients. Low nutrients can of course lead to dysbiosis, especially in new tanks. But in established tanks with good clinical signs like regular maintenance and feeding, good coral growth, and low pest population, it’s far more likely that low nutrients are signs of a balanced system with a robust population of microorganisms that are processing all the organics.

I think what you *don’t* want to do in that situation is start fussing with it to see numbers on your Hannah. In a tank with a balanced microbial population, changing things is more likely to cause dysbiosis than leaving things alone.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Be advised that simpler life (algae, bacteria) will suck up N and P faster than coral every time. I would only dose them in pursuit of a particular goal. They truly are not goals in and of themselves.

I don't see any functional difference along those lines than feeding more, but when dosing, you have better control and avoid some other issues that may come from feeding more, such as more organics in the water, lower O2, etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMHO, this is an ironic comment! Zero nutrients will produce…nothing. I think people in the hobby rely sometimes on a bit of magical thinking. Like dinoflagellates live only on light and water, and are lurking in our tanks waiting for that dreaded zero nutrients.

Dinos need N and P like all other life. They are aggressive photosynthesizers, but the opportunity they are waiting for is dysbiosis (microorganism imbalance), not low nutrients. Low nutrients can of course lead to dysbiosis, especially in new tanks. But in established tanks with good clinical signs like regular maintenance and feeding, good coral growth, and low pest population, it’s far more likely that low nutrients are signs of a balanced system with a robust population of microorganisms that are processing all the organics.

I think what you *don’t* want to do in that situation is start fussing with it to see numbers on your Hannah. In a tank with a balanced microbial population, changing things is more likely to cause dysbiosis than leaving things alone.

I don't disagree that one is trying to boost other organisms to colonize the bare surfaces, but it is clear that boosting nutrients helps in many cases, presumably for this reason.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

IMHO, this is an ironic comment! Zero nutrients will produce…nothing. I think people in the hobby rely sometimes on a bit of magical thinking. Like dinoflagellates live only on light and water, and are lurking in our tanks waiting for that dreaded zero nutrients.

Dinos need N and P like all other life. They are aggressive photosynthesizers, but the opportunity they are waiting for is dysbiosis (microorganism imbalance), not low nutrients. Low nutrients can of course lead to dysbiosis, especially in new tanks. But in established tanks with good clinical signs like regular maintenance and feeding, good coral growth, and low pest population, it’s far more likely that low nutrients are signs of a balanced system with a robust population of microorganisms that are processing all the organics.

I think what you *don’t* want to do in that situation is start fussing with it to see numbers on your Hannah. In a tank with a balanced microbial population, changing things is more likely to cause dysbiosis than leaving things alone.

Sure, we're all entitled to our opinions. On my very experienced opinion, you're completely wrong.

 

[ElementReefer]

Sure, we're all entitled to our opinions. On my very experienced opinion, you're completely wrong.

Experience is important, but so is a good understanding of the actual biology, which is not an opinion.

Putting both of them together is what will help this person’s tank in the long run.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Experience is important, but so is a good understanding of the actual biology, which is not an opinion.

Putting both of them together is what will help this person’s tank in the long run.

I couldn't have said it better. If you had a firm grip on Marine Biology, you wouldn't be dealing with the problems you are having here.

Thread 'What would you do?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-would-you-do.968618/

Not looking to get into a back and forth, but state your opinion and keep your snide "ironic" and "magic" comments to yourself.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Tank is a 40g cube. Mixed reef about 50/50 SPS/LPS. I feed flake and pellets and live Phyto in the morning, defrosted frozen and live Phyto in the afternoon. I also dose RedSea AB+ about 3mils a day. In the morning I do 2 pumps of TM Plus NP which is the max dose.
PO4 and NO3 is 0.0 via Hannah. I did get it to .03 last week and I shut down my roller mat for a week. I was hoping it would surge when I did that, no such luck.
My corals do have growth and there is a bit of hair algae here and there, and no dinos or cyano, so it is not like there is no nutrients, they are just being used up quickly.
Anybody have any luck with some other way to add nutrients to their system?

It sounds like maybe your tank is hitting the "Mature" mark... a lot of fast growing corals and little algae or other pest organisms. The best thing I ever did after my tank matured was to stop chasing nutrient levels. I do test for N & P. I might slow feeding or turn the skimmer back on if I see a rise in N or P but seldom do anything if they are "low".

I think that the risk of Dino or other bacterial outbreaks is very low in mature systems. In these mature tanks, the bacterial biome is established and can outcompete most other invasive bacteria. Additionally, biofilms are established on surfaces that make it harder for algae to get a foothold.

I was also able to ween the tank off of both AB+ and phytoplankton once I stopped messing with the tank. As of now, very well fed fish provide the ammonia and carbon needed by all the organisms in the tank. I've even been able to take out all filtration and let the corals and other life do all the work. I have one very empty sump right now. All I add to the tank is All For Reef and food.

 

[ElementReefer]

I couldn't have said it better. If you had a firm grip on Marine Biology, you wouldn't be dealing with the problems you are having here.

Thread 'What would you do?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-would-you-do.968618/

Not looking to get into a back and forth, but state your opinion and keep your snide "ironic" and "magic" comments to yourself.

I’m sorry if my comment offended you. Resorting to using this persons thread to personally attack me is not appropriate. It sounds like you may have a hard time with criticism. The cool thing about this hobby is that new things are discovered all the time, and things are always changing.

I’m always happy to ask questions here and post about my issues- that’s what the forum is for! I’d likewise be happy to send you a copy of my graduate degree in life sciences, but I don’t think this is about that.

To get back on this poor guy’s topic, he deserves to know that 0 nutrients is certainly associated with dino outbreaks, but it doesn’t “cause them.” I want fellow hobbyists here to understand *why* things can happen, not just that X equals Y.

 

[Dan_P]

Tank is a 40g cube. Mixed reef about 50/50 SPS/LPS. I feed flake and pellets and live Phyto in the morning, defrosted frozen and live Phyto in the afternoon. I also dose RedSea AB+ about 3mils a day. In the morning I do 2 pumps of TM Plus NP which is the max dose.
PO4 and NO3 is 0.0 via Hannah. I did get it to .03 last week and I shut down my roller mat for a week. I was hoping it would surge when I did that, no such luck.
My corals do have growth and there is a bit of hair algae here and there, and no dinos or cyano, so it is not like there is no nutrients, they are just being used up quickly.
Anybody have any luck with some other way to add nutrients to their system?

I haven’t the replies to your post. Sorry for duplicated advice.

Just dose phosphate and nitrate to the point your are happy.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Are you still adding plus NP? Have you added any today?

I'm only asking because I was going to get the balance NP running in my tank this morning. And here we are again playing where did my phosphate go game. Tested twice and came back with the zero. Added 1.1 ml of plus NP and waited 30 minutes and got a reading of 12 ppb phosphorus. The nitrate has dropped from 2.1 down to 1.4. so I will be adding some calcium nitrate this evening and be checking my numbers again in the morning to see if anything sticks. I'm going to follow your thread in hopes of learning something new.

I was speaking with Lou Ekus this morning and we had a great chat. The one thing I asked him was about water changes and if I should cease doing them and he replied back saying no, keep up your regular water changes.

I changed 10% of mine a week but he suggested maybe changing 20% in 2 or 3 weeks but don't just stop doing water changes in hopes of bringing your nutrients up. Really that's about all the info that I can pass along at the moment.

So... I continued dosing Plus NP for a few days. My phosphate reading varied from 0.0 to 0.2. I would do 2 ml (pumps) in the morning. BTW I just want to point out that I am also having an Alkalinity issue also. Really, I changed to ESV two part and trying to dial in the delivery system. So I am doing readings and doing supplemental hand dosing while dialing in the doser. I feel that there is an improvement even though it tends not to show on the test. I think someone said here or another post, (to paraphrase) "anything showing on your tests is nutrients not being used". The problem with not showing on a test is, are you negative or neutral?
I think things are being good, because in another tangent in the story. I had a small frag tank that I fried the corals overnight due to an equipment failure that led to a high Alk/ low nutrient situation. I pulled those from that tank and put them in the 40g cube and they seem to be bouncing back.. slowly. Also today, I skipped the Plus NP and added a capful of Brightwell N&P. I will do that through the weekend so see if there is any change. But will probably go back to Plus NP if I do not see a significant change.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

So... I continued dosing Plus NP for a few days. My phosphate reading varied from 0.0 to 0.2. I would do 2 ml (pumps) in the morning. BTW I just want to point out that I am also having an Alkalinity issue also. Really, I changed to ESV two part and trying to dial in the delivery system. So I am doing readings and doing supplemental hand dosing while dialing in the doser. I feel that there is an improvement even though it tends not to show on the test. I think someone said here or another post, (to paraphrase) "anything showing on your tests is nutrients not being used". The problem with not showing on a test is, are you negative or neutral?
I think things are being good, because in another tangent in the story. I had a small frag tank that I fried the corals overnight due to an equipment failure that led to a high Alk/ low nutrient situation. I pulled those from that tank and put them in the 40g cube and they seem to be bouncing back.. slowly. Also today, I skipped the Plus NP and added a capful of Brightwell N&P. I will do that through the weekend so see if there is any change. But will probably go back to Plus NP if I do not see a significant change.

I just got off the phone with TM Lou and he said don't worry about adding nitrate to the system. Focus on phosphorus/ phosphate and get it up to .1 or bare minimum of .05 at the lowest. I've been dosing Neophos and seen numbers rise and drop. I was told to just go buy the cheapest like tetra flakes and feed the fish and you'll definitely see the phosphate go up. Once your at the levels the corals like then continue with NP balance. So off to the LFS for me. I'll follow this journey with ya.

You still have the TP roller off line?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just got off the phone with TM Lou and he said don't worry about adding nitrate to the system. Focus on phosphorus/ phosphate and get it up to .1 or bare minimum of .05 at the lowest

I’m not sure what exactly was said, but in my opinion, nitrate at 0.0 ppm warrants dosing more N in some fashion, unless you are feeding a lot of particulate foods to the corals.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

I just got off the phone with TM Lou and he said don't worry about adding nitrate to the system. Focus on phosphorus/ phosphate and get it up to .1 or bare minimum of .05 at the lowest. I've been dosing Neophos and seen numbers rise and drop. I was told to just go buy the cheapest like tetra flakes and feed the fish and you'll definitely see the phosphate go up. Once your at the levels the corals like then continue with NP balance. So off to the LFS for me. I'll follow this journey with ya.

You still have the TP roller off line?

Yes, the TP is still off line. 0.0 Po4 again today

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I went and bought some flake food from PetSmart and fead heavily. I just turned the return pump off for 10 minutes so it all wouldn't end up in the filter socks.

The way the water looked this evening once it started to get dark outside I could see a bit of haze to it.

I'll report back in the morning on if it really shot up the phosphate levels.

This is what I got this morning for phosphorus.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I was also informed that using Plus NP your not going to see much of a reading on hobby grade test kits just because of the nature of the additive. To gauge a measurable reading he said to just but the cheapest flake food and add it to the tank. Phosphate is a food preservative if I recall. But as for my numbers Lou says I'm on the right track and just keep doing what I'm doing and it should be a week and I should start seeing a more stable improvement. When he said to feed heavily I told him I have been, I said I use Frozen food and really feed heavy. He said frozen food has little protein I believe he said. He said when you feed heavy it should be a cheap flake or pellet food, cheaper the better. That'll raise the numbers and then keep dosing Plus NP and test and see if it stabilizes, it should if you feed heavy enough. So we shall see what tomorrow morning shows lol..

I mentioned reef roids and he wouldn't comment because it's not a TM product and maybe reach out to them he said.

After dosing reef roids and having a Dino outbreak I think the system couldn't handle it. So no reef roids or RS AB+ for a while.

I did order a small bag of Ocean direct live sand and actually called and got them to check and it's definitely wet/moist sand and has the included clarifier so that's good for me. Lots of ppl complain the ocean direct sand is bone dry so I wanted to double check before placing my order. I'm going to add it slowly to the tank and not disturb the sand bed as an extra boost of bacteria for the bio diversity. I'll let the system sift the new sand through the dry sand I used for the start up naturally and hopefully the system will start to fall in line properly.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I’m not sure what exactly was said, but in my opinion, nitrate at 0.0 ppm warrants dosing more N in some fashion, unless you are feeding a lot of particulate foods to the corals.

Mr Randy that's what's been said a numerous of times but people say this, they say that, and sifting through all the info gets confusing and honestly irritating just because one says more food, add reef roids, ect but nobody say how much, or what food to use. Your post is correct and I noticed the word (particulate food) so that tells me when you mention corals is to use a product like Reef roids.

I will be honest and tell you that I added Neophos at recommended dosage and July 12th I had a phosphorus of 15 ppb, July 13th phosphorus dropped to 14 and today dropped down to 9ppb and that was adding exactly the same dosage everyday. So obviously Neophos isn't helping. However, and I am going to see this and take my Fanboy hat off and just be honest and tell you that when I was repeatedly using plus NP I was seeing a steady increase in phosphorus. But when I see my corals dwindling away I stepped up and stopped dosing plus NP and went to Neophos and yes I would see a jump but then I would see a fast drop in phosphate.

You mentioned about raising nitrate and I'm using what you suggested which was calcium nitrate which is the ingredient in the ESV nitrate additive and I've been following their instructions on one drop per gallon and I'm seeing a +/- .1 difference in what they claim. So that was a plus for sure

I asked a member in here for advice and be a mentor to me on help and I couldn't believe the responses I was getting, it's like the person didn't even read my post and would say one thing and then say another.

I'm still learning this forum and I'm sure if I look hard enough in the right place I'll find all the info I need. But in my opinion if somebody is detailed in their question and you get 10 different answers what answer do you go with? I know and admitt I'm guilty of it personally. I've given proper advice with success and I've also given advice that didn't give the proper success. I know this is a community and people like to post, but I think there should be a separate thread that is dedicated to correct information and unless an individual can post with certainty then don't post anything and either watch the thread to kearn or move on. It's like filling a pan full of sand and gravel to find that one piece of valuable gold. You can sift and sift and it's so hard to find that one flake that pays off.

I'm still trying to learn who is who in here and I know you can't answer every single tag in somebody's thread. But you are very busy doing your personal job as well as helping others in here which we all appreciate like you wouldn't believe. But there are times when there is an emergency and I'm sure you can understand being in someone else's shoes that people do panic and really have nowhere else to go. Sometimes people feel like they are against the wall without any help or proper information. A person like me I could spend all day asking you questions but we both know that's impossible for anybody actually. I'm like a sponge and I soak up advice be it good or bad. This Tropic Marin stuff is using a different strategy/chemistry then other companies out there and Lou has given great advice over the phone and I've been seeing positive results. But then again he only specializes in one brand and that's the brand I use and yourself being a chemist have the understanding of chemistry which makes you another valuable asset. You also have just as much of an understanding on their chemistry as they do. I do apologize for being super long-winded LOL but when an individual says change one gallon of water every day especially with a system that is too clean to begin with really makes me question on why are they even giving me this useless information. Why change water out in a new system that already has new water in it that's still full of all the elements? That's just a few examples of what I've been seeing and given.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Mr Randy that's what's been said a numerous of times but people say this, they say that, and sifting through all the info gets confusing and honestly irritating just because one says more food, add reef roids, ect but nobody say how much, or what food to use. Your post is correct and I noticed the word (particulate food) so that tells me when you mention corals is to use a product like Reef roids.

I will be honest and tell you that I added Neophos at recommended dosage and July 12th I had a phosphorus of 15 ppb, July 13th phosphorus dropped to 14 and today dropped down to 9ppb and that was adding exactly the same dosage everyday. So obviously Neophos isn't helping. However, and I am going to see this and take my Fanboy hat off and just be honest and tell you that when I was repeatedly using plus NP I was seeing a steady increase in phosphorus. But when I see my corals dwindling away I stepped up and stopped dosing plus NP and went to Neophos and yes I would see a jump but then I would see a fast drop in phosphate.

You mentioned about raising nitrate and I'm using what you suggested which was calcium nitrate which is the ingredient in the ESV nitrate additive and I've been following their instructions on one drop per gallon and I'm seeing a +/- .1 difference in what they claim. So that was a plus for sure

I asked a member in here for advice and be a mentor to me on help and I couldn't believe the responses I was getting, it's like the person didn't even read my post and would say one thing and then say another.

I'm still learning this forum and I'm sure if I look hard enough in the right place I'll find all the info I need. But in my opinion if somebody is detailed in their question and you get 10 different answers what answer do you go with? I know and admitt I'm guilty of it personally. I've given proper advice with success and I've also given advice that didn't give the proper success. I know this is a community and people like to post, but I think there should be a separate thread that is dedicated to correct information and unless an individual can post with certainty then don't post anything and either watch the thread to kearn or move on. It's like filling a pan full of sand and gravel to find that one piece of valuable gold. You can sift and sift and it's so hard to find that one flake that pays off.

I'm still trying to learn who is who in here and I know you can't answer every single tag in somebody's thread. But you are very busy doing your personal job as well as helping others in here which we all appreciate like you wouldn't believe. But there are times when there is an emergency and I'm sure you can understand being in someone else's shoes that people do panic and really have nowhere else to go. Sometimes people feel like they are against the wall without any help or proper information. A person like me I could spend all day asking you questions but we both know that's impossible for anybody actually. I'm like a sponge and I soak up advice be it good or bad. This Tropic Marin stuff is using a different strategy/chemistry then other companies out there and Lou has given great advice over the phone and I've been seeing positive results. But then again he only specializes in one brand and that's the brand I use and yourself being a chemist have the understanding of chemistry which makes you another valuable asset. You also have just as much of an understanding on their chemistry as they do. I do apologize for being super long-winded LOL but when an individual says change one gallon of water every day especially with a system that is too clean to begin with really makes me question on why are they even giving me this useless information. Why change water out in a new system that already has new water in it that's still full of all the elements? That's just a few examples of what I've been seeing and given.

These are my reasons for suggesting nitrate be detectable (my recommendation is 2-10 ppm nitrate), but obviously corals thrive in undetectable nitrate because they do so in some reef tanks and in the ocean (where they may get more particulate sources of N and P).

1. In some aquaria, undetectable N or P can risk dinos that can thrive when other organisms that might occupy that same niche cannot.

2. Having detectable nitrate ensures there is sufficient N available. Without detectable nitrate, there may still be adequate N available, but it is not easy to know that to be the case without observing organisms, and the thing to look for is less than optimal corals. So why not have detectable nitrate in any case, and not worry about it?

It is certainly a fine plan to run with low to no nitrate. You just need to be sure you are providing adequate N to all of your photosynthetic organisms in some fashion. That is a great plan for advanced reefers like jda who do that sort of monitoring. It is not necessarily optimal for many newer or more casual reefers who may not have the time or knowledge to know what to look for and how and how much N to supply.

To boost nitrate, one can add more food (has other effects, not all always desirable), dose ammonia/ammonium, nitrate, or amino acids.

Water changes are done for many reasons, and removing unwanted organics and accumulating ions is one that may not be well served in other ways.