Steve Ruddy
Active Member
Here are a pair of Amphiprion perecula x Premnas biaculeatus. I was wondering if anyone has seen these before. I think the company that bred them went out of business.
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Hybrid Clowns
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ficklefins
Super Duper Moderator
That is pretty cool. I think if you end up breeding them you will have a pretty unique thing going.
roshi719
Official fish poo remover
I would say you are fighting a losing battle trying to get those hybrids to breed.
This is from the encylopedia britanica on hybrids:
"offspring of parents that differ in genetically determined traits. The parents may be of different species, genera, or (rarely) families. The term [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]hybrid[/COLOR][/COLOR]
, therefore, has a wider application than the terms mongrel or crossbreed, which usually refer to animals or plants resulting from a cross between two races, breeds, strains, or varieties of the same species. There are many species hybrids in nature (in ducks, oaks, blackberries, etc.), and, although naturally occurring hybrids between two genera have been noted, most of these latter result from human intervention. Because of basic biological incompatibilities, sterile hybrids (those incapable of producing living young) such as the mule (a hybrid between a ******* and a mare) commonly result from crosses between species.
Some interspecific hybrids, however, are fertile and true breeding. These hybrids can be sources for the formation of new species. Many economically or aesthetically important cultivated plants (bananas, coffee, peanuts, dahlias, roses, bread wheats, alfalfa, etc.) have originated through natural hybridization or hybridization induced by [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]chemical [COLOR=#009900 ! important]means[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], temperature changes, or irradiation.
The process of hybridization is important biologically because it increases the genetic variety (number of different gene combinations) within a species, which is necessary for evolution to occur. If climatic or habitat conditions change, individuals with certain combinations may be eliminated, but others with different combinations will survive. In this way, the appearance or behaviour of a species gradually may be altered. Such natural hybridization, which is widespread among certain species, makes the identification and enumeration of species very difficult.
This is from the encylopedia britanica on hybrids:
"offspring of parents that differ in genetically determined traits. The parents may be of different species, genera, or (rarely) families. The term [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]hybrid[/COLOR][/COLOR]
, therefore, has a wider application than the terms mongrel or crossbreed, which usually refer to animals or plants resulting from a cross between two races, breeds, strains, or varieties of the same species. There are many species hybrids in nature (in ducks, oaks, blackberries, etc.), and, although naturally occurring hybrids between two genera have been noted, most of these latter result from human intervention. Because of basic biological incompatibilities, sterile hybrids (those incapable of producing living young) such as the mule (a hybrid between a ******* and a mare) commonly result from crosses between species.
Some interspecific hybrids, however, are fertile and true breeding. These hybrids can be sources for the formation of new species. Many economically or aesthetically important cultivated plants (bananas, coffee, peanuts, dahlias, roses, bread wheats, alfalfa, etc.) have originated through natural hybridization or hybridization induced by [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]chemical [COLOR=#009900 ! important]means[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], temperature changes, or irradiation.
The process of hybridization is important biologically because it increases the genetic variety (number of different gene combinations) within a species, which is necessary for evolution to occur. If climatic or habitat conditions change, individuals with certain combinations may be eliminated, but others with different combinations will survive. In this way, the appearance or behaviour of a species gradually may be altered. Such natural hybridization, which is widespread among certain species, makes the identification and enumeration of species very difficult.
iani
Valuable Member
I would say you are fighting a losing battle trying to get those hybrids to breed.
This is from the encylopedia britanica on hybrids:
"offspring of parents that differ in genetically determined traits. The parents may be of different species, genera, or (rarely) families. The term [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]hybrid[/COLOR][/COLOR]
, therefore, has a wider application than the terms mongrel or crossbreed, which usually refer to animals or plants resulting from a cross between two races, breeds, strains, or varieties of the same species. There are many species hybrids in nature (in ducks, oaks, blackberries, etc.), and, although naturally occurring hybrids between two genera have been noted, most of these latter result from human intervention. Because of basic biological incompatibilities, sterile hybrids (those incapable of producing living young) such as the mule (a hybrid between a ******* and a mare) commonly result from crosses between species.
Some interspecific hybrids, however, are fertile and true breeding. These hybrids can be sources for the formation of new species. Many economically or aesthetically important cultivated plants (bananas, coffee, peanuts, dahlias, roses, bread wheats, alfalfa, etc.) have originated through natural hybridization or hybridization induced by [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]chemical [COLOR=#009900 ! important]means[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], temperature changes, or irradiation.
The process of hybridization is important biologically because it increases the genetic variety (number of different gene combinations) within a species, which is necessary for evolution to occur. If climatic or habitat conditions change, individuals with certain combinations may be eliminated, but others with different combinations will survive. In this way, the appearance or behaviour of a species gradually may be altered. Such natural hybridization, which is widespread among certain species, makes the identification and enumeration of species very difficult.
Why? What you posted says not all hybrids are sterile. This could be one of the hybrids that could breed true. It would be worth trying.
Looks like the hybrids that aren't sterile are brought on by nature and are plants as well.
roshi719
Official fish poo remover
The generally held definition of a species is that of Ernst Mayr: "groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups."
Usually viable hybrids come from crossing very similar species. These are naturally reproductively isolated though. meaning that normally these two species either occur in different areas and do not naturally mix, or they breed at different times of the year and do not naturally interbreed. It is only when man steps in and conducts controlled breeding that these viable hybrids occur. Being as the two clownfish that were crossed to make this hybrid are from two different genera, I feel fairly confident in saying that they would be one of the great majority of hybrids that is sterile.
Usually viable hybrids come from crossing very similar species. These are naturally reproductively isolated though. meaning that normally these two species either occur in different areas and do not naturally mix, or they breed at different times of the year and do not naturally interbreed. It is only when man steps in and conducts controlled breeding that these viable hybrids occur. Being as the two clownfish that were crossed to make this hybrid are from two different genera, I feel fairly confident in saying that they would be one of the great majority of hybrids that is sterile.
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Steve Ruddy
Active Member
Ending up cross breeding genera maybe not possible however we should point out that the infertile-offspring test for species seems not to apply to clownfish. Clownfish of the same genera are known to crossbreed in aquariums and do produce fertile hybrid offspring.
roshi719
Official fish poo remover
Like I stated in my previous post the common hybrids seen in the hobby are usually percula x ocellaris. As can be seen from their physical appearance these are closely related species, however I believe they are isolated from each other in the wild. Meaning the only way this hybrid can occur is through human intervention.
i would have to disagree to this in the case of the clownfish. the statement is true to a point. mixing a lion and tiger and getting a liger is a real animal and was cross bread into a hybrid and yes it is sterile. or the hybrid chimp that is out there that was cross with human DNA looks more human that chimp but yet he is sterile.
liger - Google Search
but stil animals with command families, like hybred dogs and cats you can be bought and are not sterile and can bread. there is a fine line where sterilization does and doesnt acure. clowns are still in the same family so yes some can cross bread and still produce none sterile fish.
sorry saw a special on this topic on discovery channle some time back.
liger - Google Search
but stil animals with command families, like hybred dogs and cats you can be bought and are not sterile and can bread. there is a fine line where sterilization does and doesnt acure. clowns are still in the same family so yes some can cross bread and still produce none sterile fish.
sorry saw a special on this topic on discovery channle some time back.
I would say you are fighting a losing battle trying to get those hybrids to breed.
This is from the encylopedia britanica on hybrids:
"offspring of parents that differ in genetically determined traits. The parents may be of different species, genera, or (rarely) families. The term [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]hybrid[/color][/color]
, therefore, has a wider application than the terms mongrel or crossbreed, which usually refer to animals or plants resulting from a cross between two races, breeds, strains, or varieties of the same species. There are many species hybrids in nature (in ducks, oaks, blackberries, etc.), and, although naturally occurring hybrids between two genera have been noted, most of these latter result from human intervention. Because of basic biological incompatibilities, sterile hybrids (those incapable of producing living young) such as the mule (a hybrid between a ******* and a mare) commonly result from crosses between species.
Some interspecific hybrids, however, are fertile and true breeding. These hybrids can be sources for the formation of new species. Many economically or aesthetically important cultivated plants (bananas, coffee, peanuts, dahlias, roses, bread wheats, alfalfa, etc.) have originated through natural hybridization or hybridization induced by [COLOR=#009900 ! important][COLOR=#009900 ! important]chemical [COLOR=#009900 ! important]means[/color][/color][/color], temperature changes, or irradiation.
The process of hybridization is important biologically because it increases the genetic variety (number of different gene combinations) within a species, which is necessary for evolution to occur. If climatic or habitat conditions change, individuals with certain combinations may be eliminated, but others with different combinations will survive. In this way, the appearance or behaviour of a species gradually may be altered. Such natural hybridization, which is widespread among certain species, makes the identification and enumeration of species very difficult.
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roshi719
Official fish poo remover
As far as dogs go, they are hybrid "breeds". All dogs, no matter whether it is a great dane or a chihuahua, are all the same species, Canis lupus familiaris. It is a subspecies of the grey wolf. This is one of the most misquoted examples of viable hybrids out there. It is the same as saying you can cross an asian and a mexican and get a viable offspring. Race = breed as far as science is concerned.
Look at the mule. Bred from crossing a male donkey to a female horse. The donkey and horse are in the same genus even, but the offspring is sterile.
Chelsey
Valuable Member
Nice fish, I have seen them before 
Now on the note of the mule...
I've got a mule and for my equine breeding management class that I took last semester I did a presentation on WHY mules are sterile. For anybody who is truly interested send me a PM with your email address and I'll email you my powerpoint. To sum up the mule thing, not ALL of them are sterile, a very small percentage are not. The reason that most mules are sterile has to do with the production of viable gametes and the fact that the different number of chromosomes between the horse and the donkey makes pairing at meiosis incredibly difficult. There have only been 60 documented cases of fertile mules and ALL of them have been female mules. [/soapbox]
Now on the note of the mule...
I've got a mule and for my equine breeding management class that I took last semester I did a presentation on WHY mules are sterile. For anybody who is truly interested send me a PM with your email address and I'll email you my powerpoint. To sum up the mule thing, not ALL of them are sterile, a very small percentage are not. The reason that most mules are sterile has to do with the production of viable gametes and the fact that the different number of chromosomes between the horse and the donkey makes pairing at meiosis incredibly difficult. There have only been 60 documented cases of fertile mules and ALL of them have been female mules. [/soapbox]
If I remember correctly, donkeys and horses differ in # of chromosomes by a couple (don't remember which has more). You get a cross producing fertile mules when improper meiotic telophase occurs in the parent with fewer chromosomes. Essentially, the doubled chromosomes migrate together to one of the resulting gametes instead of going one to each 'daughter' cell. So one of the daughter cells has an extra copy of a chromosome and the other is short-changed.
Another thing I don't remember is whether or not the resulting fertile mule experiences health issues related to gene overexpression. I guess that depends on the exact chromosome that is duplicated, tho.
Another thing I don't remember is whether or not the resulting fertile mule experiences health issues related to gene overexpression. I guess that depends on the exact chromosome that is duplicated, tho.
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Steve Ruddy
Active Member
Sorry I was wrong about the cross it is actually Premnas biaculeatus x Amphiprion ocellaris and they call them Cocoa Clowns. Here is info about them and the company who bred them says hybrids are usually reproductively unviable. Note usually.
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