Hyposalinity for Ich in Display

[Jay Hemdal]

Makes sense. Once fish show zero white dots, THEN start counting 30 days.

question - my 10g quarantine sits right next to my display. Should I move it to another room? I was reading that ich can be airborne.

You may not need to go to "zero" white spots, but just ensure there are only a few still visible. Some of the later white spots may be "scars" and not viable trophonts, so waiting for those to go away is counterproductive.

Nearness of a QT to a DT is a known issue. The worst case is seen at some LFS where they have infected tanks above others, and water drips, causing contamination. Simply close proximity can also result in the aquarist making a mistake - dipping their hand in the QT to feed, and then moving on to the DT.

Aerosolization is a more or less theoretical mode of biosecurity failure where a disease propagule is entrapped in a tiny water droplet that moves into the air above an aquarium, drifts in air currents, and then settles in a new aquarium. Due to the small size of these droplets, it would be presumed that mostly bacterial or viral diseases could be transmitted in this fashion. Tank covers and tank separation would be two means to limit this mode of transmission. It has been reported in the literature (citation unavailable) that Amyloodinium spores can travel 12 feet inside aerosolized droplets of water and Aeromonas bacteria can travel over 20 feet. However, propagule pressure also plays into this – it can take a number of pathogens entering a system to actually cause an infection. In most instances, separating aquariums by about six feet, and never stacking aquariums (with potential disease issues above) removes most of this risk.

Jay

 

[ThePlummer]

Makes sense. Once fish show zero white dots, THEN start counting 30 days.

question - my 10g quarantine sits right next to my display. Should I move it to another room? I was reading that ich can be airborne.

just to be clear as well on my end - the fish are in the display while treating the display in hypo. Two for one.

I've heard the possibility of Ick being 'airborne'... I think that's either a urban myth, OR someone doesn't realize that they've engaged in 'cross contamination' in some way... I've been doing my TTM directly next to my DT for years and have never had a problem... But I'm usually extremely methodical about ensuring NO cross contamination... I say usually, because I recently had a brain fart and put a anemone in my DT and made a what not to do post here...https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ttm-failure-learn-from-my-mistake.876318/

 

[Max93]

That makes so much sense.

we really are our aquariums vets, totally new perspective. Very awesome hobby, truly is.

I’ll make sure to move the quarantine to an entire different floor to avoid possible brain farts.

 

[ThePlummer]

That makes so much sense.

we really are our aquariums vets, totally new perspective. Very awesome hobby, truly is.

I’ll make sure to move the quarantine to an entire different floor to avoid possible brain farts.

No kidding! When I started this hobby some 30 years ago, there was almost zero information like a forum to share information.... I listened to so called 'experts' and bought so much snake oil, only to completely fail... to the point that I gave up for several years.

I still had my original 55 gallon tank and my daughter saw it in the garage and wanted me to set it up again... So, this time, before starting I did massive amounts of research on the 'interwebs'. That's where I got Humblefish's TTM method, and I've refined the technique to the point that IF the fish survives the first 36 hour TTM, the survival rate goes to nearly 100%.

I also got info on using a RDSB and the benifits... It's not used much anymore, but I swear by using it....

Now I have a very high success rate and am very happy to be back in the hobby.

 

[Max93]

No kidding! When I started this hobby some 30 years ago, there was almost zero information like a forum to share information.... I listened to so called 'experts' and bought so much snake oil, only to completely fail... to the point that I gave up for several years.

I still had my original 55 gallon tank and my daughter saw it in the garage and wanted me to set it up again... So, this time, before starting I did massive amounts of research on the 'interwebs'. That's where I got Humblefish's TTM method, and I've refined the technique to the point that IF the fish survives the first 36 hour TTM, the survival rate goes to nearly 100%.

I also got info on using a RDSB and the benifits... It's not used much anymore, but I swear by using it....

Now I have a very high success rate and am very happy to be back in the hobby.

That is one of the main reasons I post and ask a million questions when it comes to this sometimes. Someone, just like me out there, has spent thousands on failures. Hopefully they read it and can reduce the stress level (hence why I am trying out making the display a temporary FOWLR) in theory, sounds like it can work if done correctly. And heck I think everyone should first cycle, add ALL fish, THEN go for Coral. I’m glad I did this because I really did not want to destroy the tank to catch all the fish, and spend close to $600 on setting up a large quarantine tank.

glad you’re in the hobby still! I almost quit last week when I saw the dreaded ich. I was getting ready to buy a battle box *cries*

but here we are and hopefully I can add successfully to the encyclopedia of ich treatments.

 

[ThePlummer]

That is one of the main reasons I post and ask a million questions when it comes to this sometimes. Someone, just like me out there, has spent thousands on failures. Hopefully they read it and can reduce the stress level (hence why I am trying out making the display a temporary FOWLR) in theory, sounds like it can work if done correctly. And heck I think everyone should first cycle, add ALL fish, THEN go for Coral. I’m glad I did this because I really did not want to destroy the tank to catch all the fish, and spend close to $600 on setting up a large quarantine tank.

glad you’re in the hobby still! I almost quit last week when I saw the dreaded ich. I was getting ready to buy a battle box *cries*

but here we are and hopefully I can add successfully to the encyclopedia of ich treatments.

You don't need a large QT... I really like Innovative Marine's AIO's and you can find them on the cheap used. I've bought 3 so far... a 14 that I use for Coral/invert QT, and 2-20 AIO's that I leave a couple of small fish in, just to keep the bio working, so I have somewhere to go with a problematic fish.... Say, one is a bully, or one gets injured...

Also, definitely invest in a fish trap.... Since I've done this, I haven't had to destroy my aquascape to catch some fish that needs to be moved....

We had a major setback this last year... If you check out my build thread, you'll see I got a IM 120 tank and stand for $200.00 Heavily modified it, and it was working great.... Till one night the skimmer sensor went off because the waste tank was full. I was too tired to get up and empty it, and just left it in alarm till morning.... Well, as luck would have it, the electric fluttered some time during the night, which caused the skimmer sensor 'reset' and since water was already over the 'eye' when it did, it turned the skimmer back on.... when I got up the next morning, I had about 15 gallons of wet skimmate on the floor, which ruined the sub floor under the 120 and one end of the tank started to sag into the floor...

We've decided to buy a new APS stand from Innovative Marine before I fix the floor... But due to the 'supply line disruptions' It's been on back order for the last 3 months....

In this hobby the one thing you have to remember.... If it can go wrong, it eventually will go wrong... Who would have ever thought that the ONE thing that could cause a problem (power outage) would ultimately be the thing that happened on that exact night...LOL

 

[Max93]

You don't need a large QT... I really like Innovative Marine's AIO's and you can find them on the cheap used. I've bought 3 so far... a 14 that I use for Coral/invert QT, and 2-20 AIO's that I leave a couple of small fish in, just to keep the bio working, so I have somewhere to go with a problematic fish.... Say, one is a bully, or one gets injured...

Also, definitely invest in a fish trap.... Since I've done this, I haven't had to destroy my aquascape to catch some fish that needs to be moved....

We had a major setback this last year... If you check out my build thread, you'll see I got a IM 120 tank and stand for $200.00 Heavily modified it, and it was working great.... Till one night the skimmer sensor went off because the waste tank was full. I was too tired to get up and empty it, and just left it in alarm till morning.... Well, as luck would have it, the electric fluttered some time during the night, which caused the skimmer sensor 'reset' and since water was already over the 'eye' when it did, it turned the skimmer back on.... when I got up the next morning, I had about 15 gallons of wet skimmate on the floor, which ruined the sub floor under the 120 and one end of the tank started to sag into the floor...

We've decided to buy a new APS stand from Innovative Marine before I fix the floor... But due to the 'supply line disruptions' It's been on back order for the last 3 months....

In this hobby the one thing you have to remember.... If it can go wrong, it eventually will go wrong... Who would have ever thought that the ONE thing that could cause a problem (power outage) would ultimately be the thing that happened on that exact night...LOL

That sounds horrible. I’ve been looking into investing in a “water alarm.” It hooks up to my home security and essentially warns you if water touches it.

the thing is I would need a large quarantine because I have 15 fish that are pretty big. I can’t possible house them in a 55g for 76 days without having some of them die out due to stress/aggression -right?

 

[ThePlummer]

That sounds horrible. I’ve been looking into investing in a “water alarm.” It hooks up to my home security and essentially warns you if water touches it.

the thing is I would need a large quarantine because I have 15 fish that are pretty big. I can’t possible house them in a 55g for 76 days without having some of them die out due to stress/aggression -right?

Not necessarily true... Because of the 120 having to be broken down, I had to put a dozen fish in the biggest tank I have (40 breeder) they are doing fine. I set this one up, specifically to be used as a Coral/invert QT, but when this issue arose, I had to immediately move a large amount of my sand and my aquascape into the 40... If you set up a REALLY good refugium you can way overload a tank.

I'll edit this post shortly and add a video and picture of what I've done with a hang on back wet/dry filter that I've had for 30 years.... Repurpose is the BEST form of recycling IMO.....

I love using MarinePure 2” blocks. There are 40 of them in this space.

 

[Max93]

Not necessarily true... Because of the 120 having to be broken down, I had to put a dozen fish in the biggest tank I have (40 breeder) they are doing fine. I set this one up, specifically to be used as a Coral/invert QT, but when this issue arose, I had to immediately move a large amount of my sand and my aquascape into the 40... If you set up a REALLY good refugium you can way overload a tank.

I'll edit this post shortly and add a video and picture of what I've done with a hang on back wet/dry filter that I've had for 30 years.... Repurpose is the BEST form of recycling IMO.....

I love using MarinePure 2” blocks. There are 40 of them in this space.

I see what you’re saying.

the issue for me is space, the 220 already takes up the kitchen island, table and the entire 10 foot wall I literally have crap
Everywhere everyday. Especially now, there’s more stuff because of the ich. Ich has become the topic of conversation to anyone that comes to the house, extended family, friends, etc LOL. Im very well versed in the topic now

I can’t throw in another 40g so what I’m doing moving forward to prevent all this is TTM, and leaving a custom made frag tank (21g) + this 10g quarantine tank in the basement.

 

[Max93]

Curious if anyone knows - ich vaccine?

based on the UF research paper, an ich vaccine exists. Any idea who I can contact to learn more? I’m sure I can contact UF, I went to school there, but - who in the aquarium world knows more?

 

[Max93]

Day 2

December 17, 2021

got up at 3am and caught two more inverts. Hermit And snail.

blue hippo tang woke up with major ich outbreak.

sg dropped from 1.022 to 1.017

skimmer is not grabbing as much skimmate right now, so I am skimming a bit wetter.
Noticed my convict tang scratch 3 times consecutively on the same rock and spot on his body.
Lyretails are scratching but no symptoms. Otherwise fish are eating algae from the veggie clip as Normal and I am feeding the hippo tangs favorite food soaked in selcon - hikari brine shrimp.

tomorrow I will do a minor drop in salinity, maybe just .002. Then on Sunday we’ll get down to .011 and finally on Monday .009.

I was reading others experiences on here and on reefcentral and seems like most people that have done this my way before had a better time slowly dropping the salinity due to die off. Mind you my tank is sparkling clean, my rocks don’t have any algae. I also removed my algae turf scrubber so that doesn’t die too. More to come…

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Curious if anyone knows - ich vaccine?

based on the UF research paper, an ich vaccine exists. Any idea who I can contact to learn more? I’m sure I can contact UF, I went to school there, but - who in the aquarium world knows more?

That's news to me. I know they have been working on a Cryptocaryon vaccine for decades, and have developed some material that reduce theronts, but as far as I know, there is no commercial product.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Day 2

December 17, 2021

got up at 3am and caught two more inverts. Hermit And snail.

blue hippo tang woke up with major ich outbreak.

sg dropped from 1.022 to 1.017

skimmer is not grabbing as much skimmate right now, so I am skimming a bit wetter.
Noticed my convict tang scratch 3 times consecutively on the same rock and spot on his body.
Lyretails are scratching but no symptoms. Otherwise fish are eating algae from the veggie clip as Normal and I am feeding the hippo tangs favorite food soaked in selcon - hikari brine shrimp.

tomorrow I will do a minor drop in salinity, maybe just .002. Then on Sunday we’ll get down to .011 and finally on Monday .009.

I was reading others experiences on here and on reefcentral and seems like most people that have done this my way before had a better time slowly dropping the salinity due to die off. Mind you my tank is sparkling clean, my rocks don’t have any algae. I also removed my algae turf scrubber so that doesn’t die too. More to come…

In light of the hepatus tang having more spots, I'd opt to get to 1.009 by tomorrow night.

Jay

 

[Max93]

In light of the hepatus tang having more spots, I'd opt to get to 1.009 by tomorrow night.

Jay

I agree, I’m trying to do it as fast as I can. My Water station can’t keep up. It was almost empty when this started so I’ve been making water for 48 h


I’m doing another 25 gallons now replacement and tomorrow I’ll finish it off.

just tested ammonia but I have those API kits for ammonia, and it is so hard to read but based on the colors it’s looking more like zero. Tomorrow I’m going to bring in an ammonia lock as well as a new testing kit not from API.

 

[ThePlummer]

I see what you’re saying.

the issue for me is space, the 220 already takes up the kitchen island, table and the entire 10 foot wall I literally have crap
Everywhere everyday. Especially now, there’s more stuff because of the ich. Ich has become the topic of conversation to anyone that comes to the house, extended family, friends, etc LOL. Im very well versed in the topic now

I can’t throw in another 40g so what I’m doing moving forward to prevent all this is TTM, and leaving a custom made frag tank (21g) + this 10g quarantine tank in the basement.

LOL Yup, my house is literally a fish store, with all the gear needed. We tuck it away, only to have to get it out again.

My first aquarium (55) I cut a hole in the wall, under my staircase and set it into the staircase and framed around it, using the rest of the space, under the stairs as a fish room, complete with a little stainless sink.... all of my fish crap was in that room... not so much now.

 

[Max93]

LOL Yup, my house is literally a fish store, with all the gear needed. We tuck it away, only to have to get it out again.

My first aquarium (55) I cut a hole in the wall, under my staircase and set it into the staircase and framed around it, using the rest of the space, under the stairs as a fish room, complete with a little stainless sink.... all of my fish crap was in that room... not so much now.

LOL EXACTLY. My wife is about to throw the tank outside.

however she’s on board with saving the fish it’s just irritating. I think she’s more irritated for me than anything haha.

update SG at 1.015. Will drop to 1.009 by tomorrow night.

 

[Max93]

That's news to me. I know they have been working on a Cryptocaryon vaccine for decades, and have developed some material that reduce theronts, but as far as I know, there is no commercial product.

Jay

Right now commercial product is hard to obtain. I have some connections at UF, I’ll reach out and see what I can find.
Ich is such a destroyer in aquaculture and aquariums, I don’t understand why it isn’t being funded much. The savings alone for fish farmers AND ornamental aquarium importers/exporters is probably astronomical. Of course… dependent on the cost to create the vaccine and what it costs per dose. If it’s pill form - kind of like throw it in the water and let it melt, that sounds great. If it’s one shot per fish - might be expensive.

 

[Max93]

I have a question regarding the life cycle of ich:

hypo takes 30 days to kill off ich in its free swimming stage. Eggs all hatch between 3-28 days right?
So meaning my fish DONT have to go through 76 days of hypo. The strain that lives 76 days is in its free swimming stage which should be all gone by day 30 of hypo unless I have a hypo resistant strain which I should be able to notice after 7 days of hypo.

sounds like 45 days will be plenty for this display tank method, correct?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a question regarding the life cycle of ich:

hypo takes 30 days to kill off ich in its free swimming stage. Eggs all hatch between 3-28 days right?
So meaning my fish DONT have to go through 76 days of hypo. The strain that lives 76 days is in its free swimming stage which should be all gone by day 30 of hypo unless I have a hypo resistant strain which I should be able to notice after 7 days of hypo.

sounds like 45 days will be plenty for this display tank method, correct?

So - that is the issue with all ich treatments. The resting tomont stage was found to remain viable in a petri dish for 76 days, it was found to still be able to release theronts at that time. The question is, does this laboratory test extend to our aquariums? Nobody really knows. All I know is that 45 days is often not long enough if the temperature is lower than 81 degrees and if breakthroughs are seen after 76 days, they are almost always the result of some contamination issue. Therefore, the needed fallow period is somewhere between those two numbers.

I tend to go 35 days hypo (because that also kills off Neobenedenia flukes) and then I hold the fish in the same tank at normal salinity for at least 2 weeks to ensure it doesn't bounce back.

Jay

 

[Max93]

So - that is the issue with all ich treatments. The resting tomont stage was found to remain viable in a petri dish for 76 days, it was found to still be able to release theronts at that time. The question is, does this laboratory test extend to our aquariums? Nobody really knows. All I know is that 45 days is often not long enough if the temperature is lower than 81 degrees and if breakthroughs are seen after 76 days, they are almost always the result of some contamination issue. Therefore, the needed fallow period is somewhere between those two numbers.

I tend to go 35 days hypo (because that also kills off Neobenedenia flukes) and then I hold the fish in the same tank at normal salinity for at least 2 weeks to ensure it doesn't bounce back.

Jay

Thanks Jay,

so with what I’m doing, do you suggest running hypo for 60 days and raise the temperature to 81 degrees as well? Or just go ahead and run hypo for 76 days?

I don’t mind either way I just want to make sure that I never have ich ever again in my display.

all fish are alive as of today and we are dropping the Sg to 1.009 over the course of today.