I’m completely stumped and need help

[InvaderJim]

This initially started as a thread in the SPS section asking for help on why I can’t keep acros, but lately it seems to have stemmed into something else entirely with multiple corals seemingly going down hill. I have tried everything yet corals either survive or die. Absolutely nothing grows. Recently changed all my filters due to TDS reading 1 but the only thing I can think is maybe something from my well water is getting passed my ro/di or the top off from the 1 TDS has something bad in it.

The tank is a seapora/deep blue 80g shallow, running a 40 breeder for a sump. I'm running a clarisea sk-3000, simplicity 240dc skimmer and a vectra s2 return pump. Nothing else fancy down below. Lighting is a ATI 6 bulb T5 fixture ~15" over the tank (bulbs are all new), and water movement is 2x MP40s set to anti-sync lagoon mode plus a gyre XF330. The tank has been up for 2 years in November of last year. ICP showed everything within normal levels except iodine. RO/DI was perfect. I make my own water using a 5 stage ro/di and Red Sea blue bucket.

Parameters:
pH - 7.8 - 8.2
DKH - 8.0-8.5
CA - 430
MG - 1350
Po4 - 0.08-0.1
No3 - 10-15 (pretty steady)

I have tried a handful of acro frags from different places, a milka stylo, monti setosa as well and nothing survives. I have a decent size monti cap that looks to be declining and a monti spongodes that is surviving but everything else dies. Some in days, some in weeks. Location doesn’t matter, source doesn’t matter. Some will do fine on the frag rack, great polyp extension and then one day STN. More recently I have noticed other corals declining also.

What I’ve tried:
- Sent off ICP
- Mapped PAR
- Raising lights
- Running carbon and purit and also running without
- Adding more and randomized flow
- Slightly bypassing filter roller
- Stopped all dosing
- Added more fish
- Added some live sand/mud from IPSF
- Checked for stray voltage

 

[DanyL]

How did you cycle your tank - Live/Dry rock?
Iodine - too low, too high? how much?
Did you measure PAR?

What are your tank inhabitants?
Could easily be a fish or a crab that all of a sudden finds coral to be tasty.

 

[Vincerama2]

What is the pH in the tank? Is it between 7.8 -> 8.4 ? Even around 7.8 is not good, crank it up to 8.3 if you can (open windows, use kalkwasser).

Just a thought, because you didn't mention your pH reading.

I had a similar issue when my tank had corals and fish, but ICP showed my nitrates at ... 200 ppm !!!! Which is astronomical. My fish all died when my return pump failed while I was at work. That was a lesson in itself (ie; get an in-display-tank powerhead, even a small one, to disturb the surface of the water for oxygen exchange). After the fish died, I was depressed about the whole tank, but one advantage of having no fish is the lack over OVER FEEDING (my daughters would do this) so now my nitrates are near zero and corals survive. However, what made them start to thrive was getting my water parameters in line, especially dKH (Your readings are fine) and pH.

So maybe 20 nitrate is still high. I added a sulphur denitrator to help fight that, but it's probably no-feeding that has brought it down AND the algae in the tank.

Sorry for the ramble. Back to the original point ... what's your pH like?

V

 

[DanyL]

@Vincerama2 good point about the PH, however 7.8 is not deadly for most if not all corals, including delicate ones which will do just fine albeit having somewhat slower growth rate.

 

[InvaderJim]

How did you cycle your tank - Live/Dry rock?
Iodine - too low, too high? how much?
Did you measure PAR?

What are your tank inhabitants?
Could easily be a fish or a crab that all of a sudden finds coral to be tasty.

The tank was cycled with dry rock seeded with live rock from multiple sources.
Iodine was low on the ICP. 17.49 μg/l But I honestly don't feel that is the causing the issue, although i could be wrong.
I have measured PAR and it was basically dead on where I wanted it to be. I have since raised the lights to try and give the corals a break to see if it helped but it didnt. I forgot to add that to my "already tried" list.

As far as inhabitants. Yellow eyed kole tang, sailfin tang, one spot foxface, melanarus wrasse, peppermint shrimp and recently added 2 bangaii cardinals, and a flame hawkfish.

What is the pH in the tank? Is it between 7.8 -> 8.4 ? Even around 7.8 is not good, crank it up to 8.3 if you can (open windows, use kalkwasser).

Just a thought, because you didn't mention your pH reading.

I had a similar issue when my tank had corals and fish, but ICP showed my nitrates at ... 200 ppm !!!! Which is astronomical. My fish all died when my return pump failed while I was at work. That was a lesson in itself (ie; get an in-display-tank powerhead, even a small one, to disturb the surface of the water for oxygen exchange). After the fish died, I was depressed about the whole tank, but one advantage of having no fish is the lack over OVER FEEDING (my daughters would do this) so now my nitrates are near zero and corals survive. However, what made them start to thrive was getting my water parameters in line, especially dKH (Your readings are fine) and pH.

So maybe 20 nitrate is still high. I added a sulphur denitrator to help fight that, but it's probably no-feeding that has brought it down AND the algae in the tank.

Sorry for the ramble. Back to the original point ... what's your pH like?

V

I thought I had pH in there sorry. pH is always an issue I have had with this tank. It dips to 7.8 most nights and can hit 8.1-8.2 during the day. My house is new and there are now 3 of us, and 2 dogs so as you can imagine it dips pretty heavily. I can usually get it up to 8.2-8.3 with an open window but Florida weather is so unpredictable at times that it's not always and option. I was also trying to dose kalk for pH but my tank consumes basically zero alk and ca so it was driving up my alk with little to no affect on my pH so I decided to stop chasing it and let the tank do it's thing. I also added chaeto to my sump to try and keep it steady at night but so far it has done absolutely nothing.

@Vincerama2 good point about the PH, however 7.8 is not deadly for most if not all corals, including delicate ones which will do just fine albeit having somewhat slower growth rate.

Yes while certainly ideal I don't see how it could kill a bunch of stuff. It's still within an acceptable range.

 

[DanyL]

I would certainly put more weight on possibly coral nipping inhabitants.
May worth to place a camera and watch it when a coral seems to be damaged.

Can you share some photos of damaged corals?

 

[InvaderJim]

I would certainly put more weight on possibly coral nipping inhabitants.
May worth to place a camera and watch it when a coral seems to be damaged.

Can you share some photos of damaged corals?

I’ve spent a lot of time watching the tank it’s certainly not the fish. My only guess would be the peppermint but I’ve never seen it messing with anything. In fact I rarely see it leave it’s little den. I’ll get some pics just give me a few

 

[InvaderJim]

 

[DanyL]

Can you tell me what is your acclimation process when introducing a new coral?
Down to the type of dip, number of minutes in it please, step by step.

About the corals:

• Hydnophora - They can sometimes be picky about flow. Make sure it's low-medium, not too strong and not too much PAR. around 200 is well enough.
• Acroporas - Just as a good measure, take a Turkey buster and blow it off over the tissue and inspect with a magnifying glass this area as well as the base for eggs. The random locations where the tissue died may indicate an AEFW infestation. Not necessarily the cause, but let's rule it out.
• Blasto - Very similar to what a nipping looks like. But they are also good indicators for bad bacterial diversity, which can also happen on established systems over time due to some imbalance. I would do an Iodine dip and place it on the sand for now.
• Not even sure what it was honestly. A Chalice? Monti?
• Seriatopora - Looks ok to me, is there any problem with it?

I just like you to note that I'm really shooting all over the place here to brainstorm and find a possible hint to what's going on. It really does seem like you did everything right so far, but the symptoms indicate otherwise.

 

[InvaderJim]

Can you tell me what is your acclimation process when introducing a new coral?
Down to the type of dip, number of minutes in it please, step by step.

About the corals:

• Hydnophora - They can sometimes be picky about flow. Make sure it's low-medium, not too strong and not too much PAR. around 200 is well enough.
• Acroporas - Just as a good measure, take a Turkey buster and blow it off over the tissue and inspect with a magnifying glass this area as well as the base for eggs. The random locations where the tissue died may indicate an AEFW infestation. Not necessarily the cause, but let's rule it out.
• Blasto - Very similar to what a nipping looks like. But they are also good indicators for bad bacterial diversity, which can also happen on established systems over time due to some imbalance. I would do an Iodine dip and place it on the sand for now.
• Not even sure what it was honestly. A Chalice? Monti?
• Seriatopora - Looks ok to me, is there any problem with it?

I just like you to note that I'm really shooting all over the place here to brainstorm and find a possible hint to what's going on. It really does seem like you did everything right so far, but the symptoms indicate otherwise.

As far as acclimation goes I float the bag for about 15 min then dip everything in coral rx at 1.25ml/cup for 10 min and turkey baste. All of those frags were spotless when I dipped them.

- the flow on the hydnopora is about medium and its likely under 200 par in that spot. Maybe I’ll try moving it down some.
- I will check out the acro and see if I spot anything and maybe dip again.
- the favia does look like something was nipping but I haven’t noticed anything. I will follow your suggestion and dip and move it
- that’s a large red monti cap that used to have a deep dark red color to it now it’s almost completely pale and looks like it could be done for any day
- if you look closely at the bottom most tip on the right it looks like it has lost some polyps and/or flesh and also on the left one of the tips looks bad.

I am totally open to trying anything and everything at this point. So the more ideas the better.

 

[DanyL]

As far as acclimation goes I float the bag for about 15 min then dip everything in coral rx at 1.25ml/cup for 10 min and turkey baste. All of those frags were spotless when I dipped them.

That's currently my #1 suspect.
While Coral Rx is known to be a very effective dip, it is also the harshest one.
I wouldn't use it on SPS, especially not with acros.
If you do use it cut the time by half and make an Iodine bath right after to try and relief the stress a bit.

I recommend you to try and switch to another dip.
If you're located in the US, many recommend bayer, especially for acros.
I use a homemade dip based on Praziquantel for acros instead, due to the difficulty to get bayer over here.
For other corals, I recommend using Revive by TLF instead.

Another point that could relate is possible lack of gradual light acclimation, especially after a harsh dip like Coral Rx.

- I will check out the acro and see if I spot anything and maybe dip again.

Don't use Coral Rx. It'll kill it.

- the favia does look like something was nipping but I haven’t noticed anything. I will follow your suggestion and dip and move it

Just making sure - it's supposed to be an Iodine dip, not for pests.

- if you look closely at the bottom most tip on the right it looks like it has lost some polyps and/or flesh and also on the left one of the tips looks bad.

The base looks fine for a new frag, some polyps may die off in this area if it's a somewhat fresh cut, but it usually doesn't spread much further.
I can't seem to spot the tip however. It might be a new growth, otherwise it could be caused by the bag rubbing it on the way home. I really can't seem to spot the typical symptoms for this coral to indicate an upcoming wide spread tissue narcosis, but you do need to watch it closely because it happens fast.

 

[InvaderJim]

That's currently my #1 suspect.
While Coral Rx is known to be a very effective dip, it is also the harshest one.
I wouldn't use it on SPS, especially not with acros.
If you do use it cut the time by half and make an Iodine bath right after to try and relief the stress a bit.

I recommend you to try and switch to another dip.
If you're located in the US, many recommend bayer, especially for acros.
I use a homemade dip based on Praziquantel for acros instead, due to the difficulty to get bayer over here.
For other corals, I recommend using Revive by TLF instead.

Another point that could relate is possible lack of gradual light acclimation, especially after a harsh dip like Coral Rx.

Don't use Coral Rx. It'll kill it.

Just making sure - it's supposed to be an Iodine dip, not for pests.

The base looks fine for a new frag, some polyps may die off in this area if it's a somewhat fresh cut, but it usually doesn't spread much further.
I can't seem to spot the tip however. It might be a new growth, otherwise it could be caused by the bag rubbing it on the way home. I really can't seem to spot the typical symptoms for this coral to indicate an upcoming wide spread tissue narcosis, but you do need to watch it closely because it happens fast.

While that would certainly make sense for new additions, some of those corals have been in the tank for months or years before they eventually started to die off recently. The monti cap being a good example. I have actually been planning on picking up some bayer but I haven't as I can't keep anything alive long enough to justify anymore new frags.

I was planning on dipping the favia in iodine. In fact I'm going to go dip everything in iodine right now. I also have some medicoral which is iodine based.

As far as the birdsnest the base does look fine right now. But I have noticed that a few of of the corals start dying from the tips first and then go into full tissue narcosis. I have a fox flame frag recently die this way.

 

[TokenReefer]

@DanyL how long of an affect would you say dip method has once introduced to the dt? Truly curious myself. If something declines weeks later how would it be related?

 

[TokenReefer]

Op. Looks like you have a big Monti growing there. What about bypassing the filter roller altogether? Tried feeding them directly?

 

[legionofdoon]

I'd keep an eye on your peppermint shrimp. I will never get them again. They will mow through coral especially hammers and acans.

 

[InvaderJim]

Op. Looks like you have a big Monti growing there. What about bypassing the filter roller altogether? Tried feeding them directly?

Well I did. It's no longer growing and looks to be dying now. I never really feed the corals directly. I broadcast feed the tank once a day and most things grab some particles from what I've seen.

I'd keep an eye on your peppermint shrimp. I will never get them again. They will mow through coral especially hammers and acans.

This is the most likely suspect for me. Especially on the favia. But I think there is another factor at play here.

 

[DanyL]

While that would certainly make sense for new additions, some of those corals have been in the tank for months or years before they eventually started to die off recently. The monti cap being a good example. I have actually been planning on picking up some bayer but I haven't as I can't keep anything alive long enough to justify anymore new frags.

I wouldn't write off a harsh dip as an additional stress for new arrivals, you may deal with multiple underlaying issues which create a hostile environment during acclimation.

I was planning on dipping the favia in iodine. In fact I'm going to go dip everything in iodine right now. I also have some medicoral which is iodine based.

I'm not familiar with this dip, main objective is to eliminate any additional stress and focusing on relief.
So I suggest using a dip with no additional ingredients that may irritate the coral.

As far as the birdsnest the base does look fine right now. But I have noticed that a few of of the corals start dying from the tips first and then go into full tissue narcosis. I have a fox flame frag recently die this way.

Certainly something I would watch out for.
But I also know Seriatophora well enough to know that it's not a good enough indicator to make conclusions just yet, contrary to the symptoms of a dying Acro.

@DanyL how long of an affect would you say dip method has once introduced to the dt? Truly curious myself. If something declines weeks later how would it be related?

It highly depends on the coral, some have delayed reactions, especially with acros where it may take up to 2 or even 3 weeks.

The thing with new coral arrival is that it's always a combination of multiple stressors, so while we can't isolate the dip itself, we can however compare our results between the use of different dips.

 

[DanyL]

Few more questions:

1. Salinity - What it is, how you test it and how you calibrate your tools?
2. What salt do you use, was there any recall for this batch?
3. How often do you change you water and at what percentage?
4. Full tank picture might be of help.

 

[InvaderJim]

I now know better than to dip new arrivals in Coral RX so that's a plus, maybe that will help with survival. I will keep an eye on the seriatophora and see if the spots progress any.

Salinity is 1.025, I check it using a red sea refractometer calibrated with ro/di per the instructions. I have also made a salinity calibration recipe using Randy's instructions and it's spot on.

I typically do 10% water changes every two weeks with red sea blue bucket. No recalls that i've seen.

 

[TokenReefer]

Interesting mystery you have; sorry you're having to deal with it. Following here to learn more