I really messed up

Phildago · Dec 27, 2019

Billldg said:
I’m not sure, I have used either NeoNitro and NeoPhos to raise either N04 and P04, You can feed the tank to raise P04, but remember it will also raise N03 as well. Whatever you do, I think you will recover from this, no problem.

Thank you for the tips. Yeah, I think so too. Speedy recovery and lessons we'll learned are the goals lol. Maybe, prevent any loss as well. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on that one though

Sarah24! · Dec 28, 2019

Hello,

Honestly after reading the posts, I think you need to slow down. How manyrget is each tank is different. Example my tank is a low nutrient tank and it does well, which is a mixed reef. A friend has sps only and his phosphates are twice yours, his nitrates are 40ppm where mine is 2. Of either of us flopped numbers they would crash. Corals are animals and will adapt, but they adapt slowly. Some may brown out and then color up and it takes a long time.

if you strip the nutrients, not only will you risk rtn on corals but may cause dinoflagellates. You think you have problems now, dinoflagellates is in the 9th rink of hell. For you run low nutrients I’d lower your alk to 7 to 7.5, and calcium around 420. Pictures would help along with posting normal parameters and type of corals. I believe things will get worse if you make a large swing. Having phosphates is okay, specially if the corals are use to it. If your worried about alage boost your mag to 1450-1500 use Kent mag m which has (csnt say chemicals but lol chemicals), that the gha doesn’t like. Still have to do it slow and if your mag is under 1390 that will also cause sps to rtn or stn.

Phildago · Dec 28, 2019

Sarah24! said:
Hello,

Honestly after reading the posts, I think you need to slow down. How manyrget is each tank is different. Example my tank is a low nutrient tank and it does well, which is a mixed reef. A friend has sps only and his phosphates are twice yours, his nitrates are 40ppm where mine is 2. Of either of us flopped numbers they would crash. Corals are animals and will adapt, but they adapt slowly. Some may brown out and then color up and it takes a long time.

if you strip the nutrients, not only will you risk rtn on corals but may cause dinoflagellates. You think you have problems now, dinoflagellates is in the 9th rink of hell. For you run low nutrients I’d lower your alk to 7 to 7.5, and calcium around 420. Pictures would help along with posting normal parameters and type of corals. I believe things will get worse if you make a large swing. Having phosphates is okay, specially if the corals are use to it. If your worried about alage boost your mag to 1450-1500 use Kent mag m which has (csnt say chemicals but lol chemicals), that the gha doesn’t like. Still have to do it slow and if your mag is under 1390 that will also cause sps to rtn or stn.

Thanks for the reply, no issues with any algae, just a bad phosphate test and using GFO to fix a problem that didn't exist. I didn't realize how potent the GFO would be but I've had bleaching in the past from low phosphate, and was able to remedy. The thing is last time it was absolutely necessary to wipe out some turf algae. This time is was a prophylactic treatment.

The GFO is gone from my tank, light turned down a bit and feeding turned up. Magnesium never drops bellow 1350. No algae at all currently, so I'm not going to mess with anything else. I don't like running low nutrients, so my issue is really just testing for something that I shouldn't have. I'll go back to nevertesting it, and likely never need to test it again.

maroun.c · Dec 28, 2019

Just feed the corals every day to make sure they get nutrients they need while ur po4 climbs up a bit.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 28, 2019

Triggreef said:
It also leaches off iron which helps nothing.

I dosed iron because I think it helped something. You apparently do not think iron dosing is useful?

SeaDweller · Dec 28, 2019

GFO gets a bad rap because people don't know how to use it properly. Some reefers have a thriving reef despite having a (faulty) PO4 reading of 0.25 ppm, and some reason freak out and then think they need to lower it. Why? Was there something telling them 0.25 ppm (potentially) is causing an issue? That's why the saying "never chase numbers" is true.

I use RowaPhos 24/7 on my acro only tank and nothing bleaches out or dies, but I also only use it to maintain a certain level of PO4, not to achieve 0.00 ppm. I use it because I feed my tank 6-7 times a day, heavily. So for me, GFO keeps my PO4 at 0.10+ ppm. and even if it went up, I wouldn't add more or feed less; I'd watch my tank. If it went down, I wouldn't pull it, I'd feed more if i really needed to.

It's really OK to use GFO, people just don't understand to take it slow and test, daily, and correct it. Start off with 1/2 the amount and see where your tank takes you, if you ever use it again.

No need to "swear it off"; you just have to understand how to use the tool properly.

Phildago · Dec 28, 2019

SeaDweller said:
GFO gets a bad rap because people don't know how to use it properly. Some reefers have a thriving reef despite having a (faulty) PO4 reading of 0.25 ppm, and some reason freak out and then think they need to lower it. Why? Was there something telling them 0.25 ppm (potentially) is causing an issue? That's why the saying "never chase numbers" is true.

I use RowaPhos 24/7 on my acro only tank and nothing bleaches out or dies, but I also only use it to maintain a certain level of PO4, not to achieve 0.00 ppm. I use it because I feed my tank 6-7 times a day, heavily. So for me, GFO keeps my PO4 at 0.10+ ppm. and even if it went up, I wouldn't add more or feed less; I'd watch my tank. If it went down, I wouldn't pull it, I'd feed more if i really needed to.

It's really OK to use GFO, people just don't understand to take it slow and test, daily, and correct it. Start off with 1/2 the amount and see where your tank takes you, if you ever use it again.

No need to "swear it off"; you just have to understand how to use the tool properly.

I agree to some extent... But what are the problems and what could be the proper use?

In my case my problem was potential algae outbreak and using it to get phosphate at a mageable level.

In the past I ran gfo to help get rid of hair algae in the early days of my tank. It didn't work at all. Did nothing. I figured maybe it would be good for preventing the algae in an established tank then. Nope, just almost killed my corals; maybe helped prevent, but then again I probably could've done a better job by cutting back a little food for a week.

What could it be good for then? When and how can phosphates become an issue in a well established tank?

I feed heavy and never tested, haven't had a single strand of algae in my display in 6 months and the first time I test I use GFO as directed and it caused problems. I say I'm swearing off it because it's hard for me to imagine how phosphate could become and issue in my tank after this.

SeaDweller · Dec 28, 2019

Ahh, but you said it right there: POTENTIAL algae outbreak, but it didn't happen, did it? So your tank was probably managing whatever levels of P you had anyway, IF they were even that "high". For starters, I would have gotten something better than API for testing, at least Salifert.

For me, when I rebooted my tank, I used lanthanum CL to bring my levels down to near zero so I could have a clean baseline again. My PO4 was 3.0+ on Salifert (and I use salifert because it's economical for me since I test alot). But my PO4 see-sawed for about a week+ (bound up in substrate), and I tested every 12 hours. Once my levels hit between 0.00-0.03, I used 1/2 the amount of gfo to see if I could maintain that 0.03+ and still fed modestly/heavily. I actually only recently went back to the 1 tbsp/10 gallon recommended amount, and my PO4 is still 0.10 the way I feed.

We all know GFO can strip water pretty quickly of PO4, so you'd have to really monitor it, which is why it's easiest to use about 1/3-1/2 the amount first, test the effluent of the reactor, replace when needed. To ME, it's good for helping to NOT allow my PO4 to get over a certain amount (0.10 for me), and PO4 may never really manifest as a problem in an established tank. Some reefers run it from the get go (why?) because of the algae seen during a normal ugly phase or because they think they need to maintain near 0.00 levels.

To me, it's a tool to help keep my PO4 from going above 0.10 ppm, not to strip the water down to 0.00 all the time.

Phildago · Dec 28, 2019

SeaDweller said:
Ahh, but you said it right there: POTENTIAL algae outbreak, but it didn't happen, did it? So your tank was probably managing whatever levels of P you had anyway, IF they were even that "high". For starters, I would have gotten something better than API for testing, at least Salifert.

For me, when I rebooted my tank, I used lanthanum CL to bring my levels down to near zero so I could have a clean baseline again. My PO4 was 3.0+ on Salifert (and I use salifert because it's economical for me since I test alot). But my PO4 see-sawed for about a week+ (bound up in substrate), and I tested every 12 hours. Once my levels hit between 0.00-0.03, I used 1/2 the amount of gfo to see if I could maintain that 0.03+ and still fed modestly/heavily. I actually only recently went back to the 1 tbsp/10 gallon recommended amount, and my PO4 is still 0.10 the way I feed.

We all know GFO can strip water pretty quickly of PO4, so you'd have to really monitor it, which is why it's easiest to use about 1/3-1/2 the amount first, test the effluent of the reactor, replace when needed. To ME, it's good for helping to NOT allow my PO4 to get over a certain amount (0.10 for me), and PO4 may never really manifest as a problem in an established tank. Some reefers run it from the get go (why?) because of the algae seen during a normal ugly phase or because they think they need to maintain near 0.00 levels.

To me, it's a tool to help keep my PO4 from going above 0.10 ppm, not to strip the water down to 0.00 all the time.

That makes sense to me, but has the high po4 had any detrimental effects in your tank in the past? Or is that something you only do in a young tank of yours and discontinue when it gets established and is running well?

SeaDweller · Dec 28, 2019

Phildago said:
That makes sense to me, but has the high po4 had any detrimental effects in your tank in the past? Or is that something you only do in a young tank of yours and discontinue when it gets established and is running well?

at one point, my NO3 was 300 ppm and PO4 was 3.0 because I stopped caring after my crash at the end of 2016. It was bad. My tank isnt young actually, in fact most of the rock I have is from 2005-2006. I just had to start over, but with 35 active fish, and my past experiences in SPS, I need to feed heavy: heavy import and heavy export. I change Rowaphos monthly, and I test for PO4 maybe every 2 or 4 weeks for fun. When I was getting my levels where I wanted it, i tested daily, sometimes twice a day.

Phildago · Dec 28, 2019

SeaDweller said:
at one point, my NO3 was 300 ppm and PO4 was 3.0 because I stopped caring after my crash at the end of 2016. It was bad. My tank isnt young actually, in fact most of the rock I have is from 2005-2006. I just had to start over, but with 35 active fish, and my past experiences in SPS, I need to feed heavy: heavy import and heavy export. I change Rowaphos monthly, and I test for PO4 maybe every 2 or 4 weeks for fun. When I was getting my levels where I wanted it, i tested daily, sometimes twice a day.

Wow, I really appreciate your input here. I get where you're coming from with needing to use specific tools and knowing when to employ them.

Maybe I'll be at that point one day, with a bigger tank and larger, more demanding fish. At this point I couldn't imagine how to even accomplish getting my levels that high...

I always thought of PO4 and NO3 balance as kind of an art that you can get a feel for through feeding, water changes and observing changes in the tank. Then doing that PO4 test threw me for a loop and kind of freaked me out because I'm thinking maybe it could've been as high as .1, but .25 I was totally not expecting.

motortrendz · Dec 28, 2019

I hate gfo. Every time I use it my acros fade for a few weeks. And then come back. Drove me nuts. Never lost anything bit colors would fade. now I use lanthanum to control po4 and haven't looked back.

Phildago · Dec 28, 2019

motortrendz said:
I hate gfo. Every time I use it my acros fade for a few weeks. And then come back. Drove me nuts. Never lost anything bit colors would fade. now I use lanthanum to control po4 and haven't looked back.

Lanthanum seems to be the way to go. Do the calculations, dose and monitor for expected results. Precise, and easy to control. I've never personally used it, but it seems to be a bit more up my alley.

What levels do you like to keep your PO4 at?

motortrendz · Dec 28, 2019

Phildago said:
Lanthanum seems to be the way to go. Do the calculations, dose and monitor for expected results. Precise, and easy to control. I've never personally used it, but it seems to be a bit more up my alley.

What levels do you like to keep your PO4 at?

I like mine at about .1, my nitrate are a little higher also about 4ppm. But my tank is doing very well. Sometimes my po4 jumps up (I feed heavy so it happens) so dosing lanthanum directly into the foam of my skimmer though the cap brings it right back down to where I want it

Graffiti Spot · Dec 29, 2019

Gfo seems to be a problem for reefers who suddenly test and find high po4 and freak out, or reefers using api test kits. API test kits will tell you your at .25 but really your way higher. And if using them your not really seeing what the po4 is doing. The test kit will tell you it only slightly dropped but really it dropped dramatically.
If using gfo to start dropping a very high po4 level it needs to be used in a very small amount in a bag and refilled after a few days. And tests will be needed every day or two to find how much your po4 drops from the small amount. Once you see how much gfo you need to get the slow drop you want then you will be ok.
Problems come from po4 dropping very quickly. Sure 0.0 po4 will hurt a tank too if it was .2 a few days before. Once running gfo for a while, properly, you can keep your po4 at 0.0 if you have a heavily fed tank with lots of fish.
I feel like a lot of people demonize gfo because they used reactors or didn’t understand that the sudden drop of the nutrient is what causes the problems. They all thought, well as long as it doesn’t hit zero I will be ok. It there is surely nothing wrong with using gfo if you use it properly. I always suggest people use bags when starting and not a reactor and if I can’t mentor them through it I will ask them to get help from someone I know will guide them the right way.
I think a lot of the people following the high nutrient tank fad have experienced this and are running high nutrients because of gfo or a carbon source used wrong.

Rukk · Dec 29, 2019

I have run into some similar issues and though I do not claim to be an expert, I believe what has happened is that after you added the gfo the PO4 dropped too quickly for some of your critters and hence the negative effects. The bleaching etc. is not immediate but follows not too long after. I agree with others that it doesn't seem to matter too much what your PO4 level is, but like most parameters stability is a key factor. Some animals will recover and unfortunately some will probably not make it. Hope lady luck is on your side.

Phildago · Dec 29, 2019

Pedoconfuego said:
Gfo seems to be a problem for reefers who suddenly test and find high po4 and freak out, or reefers using api test kits. API test kits will tell you your at .25 but really your way higher. And if using them your not really seeing what the po4 is doing. The test kit will tell you it only slightly dropped but really it dropped dramatically.
If using gfo to start dropping a very high po4 level it needs to be used in a very small amount in a bag and refilled after a few days. And tests will be needed every day or two to find how much your po4 drops from the small amount. Once you see how much gfo you need to get the slow drop you want then you will be ok.
Problems come from po4 dropping very quickly. Sure 0.0 po4 will hurt a tank too if it was .2 a few days before. Once running gfo for a while, properly, you can keep your po4 at 0.0 if you have a heavily fed tank with lots of fish.
I feel like a lot of people demonize gfo because they used reactors or didn’t understand that the sudden drop of the nutrient is what causes the problems. They all thought, well as long as it doesn’t hit zero I will be ok. It there is surely nothing wrong with using gfo if you use it properly. I always suggest people use bags when starting and not a reactor and if I can’t mentor them through it I will ask them to get help from someone I know will guide them the right way.
I think a lot of the people following the high nutrient tank fad have experienced this and are running high nutrients because of gfo or a carbon source used wrong.

So I had used it in a bag for a few weeks, then was still testing high so I put it in a reactor. I just feel like I was actually chasing number, more or less for no reason other than fear of potential algae outbreak and that I was wrong for doing either of those things.

Triggreef · Dec 30, 2019

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
I dosed iron because I think it helped something. You apparently do not think iron dosing is useful?

People dose lots of things, doesn't mean any of it helps.

Used to have a lot of unexplained stn when I used to use gfo, and only thing out of whack per triton test was iron. Then I started alternating between gfo and aluminum type of po4 control (phosguard? Idk don't remember) thinking they would cancel eachother out. Not much of anything dies since I stopped using anything for po4 control years ago. And stopped paying any attention to po4 & no3 whatsoever.