I really wish....

[schuby]

I think serious reefers would like to be able to get quality advice about a current issue or a possible new direction for their tank. My take on this is to read many different threads on a topic. I may miss a rarely stated requirement (e.g., macro algae will eventually die without trace amounts of iron, only found in "macro algae dying" threads), but I go in with my eyes open and an awareness of possible issues and outcomes.

There's so much going on in a reef tank that new people can't process it all. They want an "Easy" button, but there isn't one. I was fortunate with my first tank that my LFS sold me a very good setup (designed for success).

 

[stephj03]

And then the experts get shade thrown at them if someone they try to help takes bad advice and think they see a 5% improvement in 2dys.

 

[JoshH]

Can someone tell me how to add GIF images. I’ve got a good one for this rascal

We can't be handing out dangerous information like that to just anyone

 

[jda]

Why is it shade or arrogance if it is right? Of course, there is no right or wrong in hypothetical land like we are living in this thread, but any advice by any old timer to any noobie that there are no shortcuts is probably the right advice, whether they want to hear it or not. They is no magic potion and there are no shortcuts, or they would not be magic or shortcuts, they would just be "the way." Nearly all perceived shortcuts end up costing something down the road, and usually more than they should have.

In other parts of society, the people who deal in short cuts and magic potions are called all kinds of nasty names from elder abusers, Enron, MCI WorldCom, junk bond traders, scammers, etc. How can tested methodology and patience work everywhere else except for here? How is it shading or being a dinosaur in this hobby?

I want no credit, nor deserve any for this simple assignment, but I set up a tank in my signature of easy SPS that grew edge to edge in a year without any magic or shortcuts. I did this so many of the locals would have a pattern to follow for easy and time proven methods. This tank was not hard and these corals are easy to grow, but I still did better than anybody else who did the same contest. Chalk one up for the old timer, I guess.

Is "old timer" on the same list as "noobie" as a derogatory term? Just curious.

 

[ycnibrc]

How many times do I have to tell you? You set the cloud coverage to be only 39.95% of the additive intensity, then making sure the UV channel goes unfiltered to make sure it can penetrate thru the dense microbial population that is inhabiting your water column, thus the simulation of Zeovit in your tank is unrivaled to be that of the 97% composition of water in your saltwater in your tank to allow the flux capacitation of your skimmer to skim properly, enhancing the bio-removatation of the waste limiting capacity of the macro algatation in your designated sump area, and never forgetting to add the extra supplementation of Zeoxanthanium.

U speak English bro lol

 

[schuby]

For @jda, self-deprecation only offends the ultra-sensitive.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

How many times do I have to tell you? You set the cloud coverage to be only 39.95% of the additive intensity, then making sure the UV channel goes unfiltered to make sure it can penetrate thru the dense microbial population that is inhabiting your water column, thus the simulation of Zeovit in your tank is unrivaled to be that of the 97% composition of water in your saltwater in your tank to allow the flux capacitation of your skimmer to skim properly, enhancing the bio-removatation of the waste limiting capacity of the macro algatation in your designated sump area, and never forgetting to add the extra supplementation of Zeoxanthanium.

 

[JCOLE]

Do you even lift bro?! Lol!!

It is the same thing with working out and weight training. It always amuzes me when guys at the gym would stop someone to correct their form, etc and they were smaller than the person they were trying to "teach". If I was trying to gain muscle then I would want to talk to someone who has been lifting for a while and knows what they are talking about. Weightlifting takes patience just like reefkeeping.

Again, a simple PRO badge for the the area of reefkeeping they know is good. Click on the badge and it goes to their page showcasing their tank and experience. Just like TANK OF THE MONTH on the "other" forum. Should be a list also so you could click on it and display all the users that have a certain badge.

I mentioned this same thing in the other thread. Their are a lot of people on this forum with 30 messages to their name but have tons of experience and outstanding tanks. If you came across them then wouldn't even know.

Vetting isnt hard. We all know who most of them are.

 

[92Miata]

In other parts of society, the people who deal in short cuts and magic potions are called all kinds of nasty names from elder abusers, Enron, MCI WorldCom, junk bond traders, scammers, etc. How can tested methodology and patience work everywhere else except for here? How is it shading or being a dinosaur in this hobby?

(This post isn't aimed at you - just felt the quote was relevant - you clearly know what you're talking about - ignore my rant)

Sometimes "tested methodology and patience" are really "because this is how we've always done it" and taking a hard look at the whys and hows of the process make it really clear that the "why" for "how we've always done it" is often based on conditions that are no longer present, assumptions that are no longer valid, or constraints that no longer exist.

I see an awful lot of advice given *now * regarding cycling tanks - especially tanks with dry rock - that was great advice in 1995 when we had easy access to rock pulled right out of the ocean- but was straight up wrong by the early 2000s when LR got scarce, and dry rock and bottle bacteria became a thing.

And somehow we've managed to turn cycling/establishing a reef tank into this enormous complicated thing that now takes months and requires you buy ammonia, vibrant, chemiclean, NoPox, and half a dozen other things - none of which were needed when we started dry rock tanks 15 years ago (*hint*hint*) - and somehow have more complications than we did back then (dinos, bro).

 

[revhtree]

R2R has gone a long way to make this board friendly to advertisers and beginners, and in the process it has alienated more experienced reefers, and done a disservice to beginners as it is seemingly more difficult to get good advice or find relevant experience. There seems to be a money driven approach at work that is more self interested, rather than interested in the advancement of the hobby or success of the newer reefer (even though it pretends to be). Just an opinion. I could be wrong.

Honestly this is absurd. So yes you could be wrong and you are wrong. You’re taking a few things you don’t like and that you "perceive" and you're throwing out all the rest of the good this community does for the hobby. You literally have NO IDEA about what we do to bring in experts, good information, the best software and addons that we have had developed and so much more. The only people that get alienated here are the ones who alienate themselves by not following the rules, causing trouble, or have an axe to grind. Trust me if this was all about the money I could have sold this place a long time ago my friend! Why don't people like you start helping make this community better by helping instead of complaining and casting judgment all the time? You ready to get your hands dirty for the good of the community or are you just content in finding the bad in all those who are working to make it better?

 

[RobB'z Reef]

Honestly this is absurd. So yes you could be wrong and you are wrong. You’re taking a few things you don’t like and that you "perceive" and you're throwing out all the rest of the good this community does for the hobby. You literally have NO IDEA about what we do to bring in experts, good information, the best software and addons that we have had developed and so much more. The only people that get alienated here are the ones who alienate themselves by not following the rules, causing trouble, or have an axe to grind. Trust me if this was all about the money I could have sold this place a long time ago my friend! Why don't people like you start helping make this community better by helping instead of complaining and casting judgment all the time? You ready to get your hands dirty for the good of the community or are you just content in finding the bad in all those who are working to make it better?

 

[IKD]

We have ’build thread’ badges, but it would be nice to see methodology badges. Basically a thread to document their approach to reefing and what they do/use. A rough template to help structure them alike would be helpful (pics, style, equipment, years running, etc.). You can issue badges (‘SPS Methodology’, ‘LPS Methodology‘) and folks could follow or tag those they like and want to learn from. This way you can at least gauge advice from someone and decide if that is a style you agree with and want to take advice from.

 

[revhtree]

Truest thing I've read in a long time! There are several of them here. Complain a lot and sit back and watch the discourse for the fun of it. I know who most of them are. Makes them feel good to get some attention.

 

[Brew12]

Truest thing I've read in a long time! There are several of them here. Complain a lot and sit back and watch the discourse for the fun of it. I know who most of them are. Makes them feel good to get some attention.

Why is everyone looking at me?

 

[jda]

(This post isn't aimed at you - just felt the quote was relevant - you clearly know what you're talking about - ignore my rant)

Sometimes "tested methodology and patience" are really "because this is how we've always done it" and taking a hard look at the whys and hows of the process make it really clear that the "why" for "how we've always done it" is often based on conditions that are no longer present, assumptions that are no longer valid, or constraints that no longer exist.

I see an awful lot of advice given *now * regarding cycling tanks - especially tanks with dry rock - that was great advice in 1995 when we had easy access to rock pulled right out of the ocean- but was straight up wrong by the early 2000s when LR got scarce, and dry rock and bottle bacteria became a thing.

And somehow we've managed to turn cycling/establishing a reef tank into this enormous complicated thing that now takes months and requires you buy ammonia, vibrant, chemiclean, NoPox, and half a dozen other things - none of which were needed when we started dry rock tanks 15 years ago (*hint*hint*) - and somehow have more complications than we did back then (dinos, bro).

You cannot offend me - really. ...and this is not directed at you, either, just going with the hypothetical a bit...

This whole example is the internet being too nice and not telling people the correct things. You CAN still get live rock and it has been available this whole time. It all has to do with money or the illusion of "control." (and in this case a horrible BRS video which I think that they probably regret) What people should have been saying all the time is that a trip to TBS or KP Aquatics (Atlantic Rock) or to Livestock USA (Pacific Rock) for cultured real live rock will save people SO much money, time and aggravation. What got said was the parroting that you need to avoid "pests" at all costs and that there was no downside to using dry/dead rock. If people knew about these dinos, diatoms, hair algae, etc., then they might make a different choice... and many have. We have a whole subset of people who think that bacteria in a bottle is all that you need. Another set that has no idea that aragonite binds large amounts of phosphates. More that think that a bristleworm is like the Craken in a Pirates of Caribbean movie. Nearly none of this was spread and spoken about by people who actually knew anything.

What did work 20 years ago still works now and all of the required tools are available. It is still probably the best way for most people. I wish that more people would still do it. Is it not smart to try and give this advice to people still?

I wrote an article many years ago urging the locals on our Denver board to still use live rock. I have gotten a good amount of people who thanked me and many more that with that they would have done it.

As for the "how we've always done it" argument, it is not like triangle wheels and hovercraft are all over the place. Being an outlier just to be one is stupid, generally and in reefing. Getting a solid foundation and base in the rule and then trying to branch out into the exception is what all of the people who are considered to be true innovators have done... Gates did not create a computer OS out of newspapers and chewing gum or Warren Buffet did not take risks buying companies using 40% interest debt from a loan shark. I am waiting for all of these risk takers who decide to try and live on helium instead of oxygen.

 

[revhtree]

Maybe I should apply the same principles to accepting criticism about R2R as you want for those helping people with their sps tanks?

Number one criteria: Must be a productive member of the community.

 

[Perry]

Badges.... careful, lol, wait until you're pm box gets maxed out.
So, at one time, I was in fact in the industry, and was sponsored, but also employed by the company who represented this said company.
@revhtree
I no longer work or am a representative anymore, and the "sponsor " badge is more negative than positive, because many sps gurus that knew me associate me, 3 years later with that said company. While the people who run this company are awesome people, and I feel their products are great, I feel it's a falsehood, and put off to some, when in reality, I am a humble happy reefer. Another words, I do not deserve this badge if you will.
I have had success with some tanks in the past, and in modern reefing, I have failed, over and over. Things have changed, and in a way that I am forced to re-learn certain to date, more realistic methods. So, while I try to help from time to time, I too look to those around here, lurking, and studying their success. My experience is invaluable, but in many cases irrelevant. I agree with @ycnibrc regarding zeovit, and how these type of methods should be worked out in a separate area, as they are not methods easily used, but trying to assist someone without advanced reefing knowledge is a whole different challenge.
@jda To me he really covers the quite broad knowledge of sps, as well as general reefing, I lurk and study his info and insight.
@Chaswood79 I follow because of up to date info, a shift in the reefing paradigm has occurred, he seems to be in the know. I could go on and on regarding my mentors in the hobby, but that's another thread another day.
My 2 cents

 

[mrpizzaface]

Honestly this is absurd. So yes you could be wrong and you are wrong. You’re taking a few things you don’t like and that you "perceive" and you're throwing out all the rest of the good this community does for the hobby. You literally have NO IDEA about what we do to bring in experts, good information, the best software and addons that we have had developed and so much more. The only people that get alienated here are the ones who alienate themselves by not following the rules, causing trouble, or have an axe to grind. Trust me if this was all about the money I could have sold this place a long time ago my friend! Why don't people like you start helping make this community better by helping instead of complaining and casting judgment all the time? You ready to get your hands dirty for the good of the community or are you just content in finding the bad in all those who are working to make it better?

I once tried to help, by explaining how a racially insensitive analogy posted by a member was offensive, and subsequently had my post removed, while the racially insensitive analogy post remained until I complained in a PM to Daniel.

 

[HuduVudu]

I am waiting for all of these risk takers who decide to try and live on helium instead of oxygen.

That is how the deep divers keep from getting the bends

I know I know the N2 is what is being replaced but that is what I saw.

 

[jda]

Touche. Be careful or you might get somebody who asks to prove why you cannot live on Helium in the normal atmosphere in this reverse, bizarro strawman, but wants everybody else to do it for them.

BTW - The Bends is my favorite Radiohead album, by far.