Ich management recommendations

[MythosRaconteur]

Best of luck. Porcupines are my favorite as well.

Thanks, Jason. Any thoughts on which way you would go?

I am leaning heavily toward the CP nuke, but know that catching that wrasse is gonna suck unless I pull all of my rock.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok, gang... first post here, but have been reading the hell out of the Chloroquine and Ich treatment posts. I am a LONG time aquarist, and @Jay Hemdal, you probably don't remember me, but I created seahorse.org and syngnathid.org and helped several aquaculture facilities get off the ground back in the day... like <ahem> 20 years or so ago... You and I have collaborated on seahorse pathology and some microbiology work way back.

At any rate, I have been without tanks for the better part of 2 decades, raising children and life... I just recently built a FOWLR system with my daughter who is very excited about marine biology.

I had a FO tank back in the day, but it ran just like my reefs, with a sump and skimmer and all the fixin's and it was pretty effortless.

This tank is a 55g running a Penn Plax Cascade 1000 canister filter (I have no experience with these things).

Tank has been up for 4 months or so now, and while my chemistry is great (0 NH3, 0 NO2, <10 NO3, temp 77, SG 1.021, dKH ~12), my pH remains low, hovering around 7.8. I am not chasing it since no one seems affected by it, but rather keep the alk in line.

Denizens:

• Snowflake Moray
• Long-nosed hawk
• Mated pair of ocellaris
• Leopard wrasse
• Porky puffer
• CUC - Astreas, red and blue-legged hermits
• A few softies (colt, ricordea, zoos)

I have been battling an algae bloom which I cannot figure out... my PO4 is ~0.25 or less, which I suppose COULD explain it but seems a bit of a stretch given other conditions. Phosphates went up due to feeding PE Mysis and not draining the effluent (old reefer, remember) - I have fixed that.

Added a Fluval clarifier (UV) to help with that.

Long story even longer, here is my problem.

I was an idiot and got a Powder Brown Tang. I have no QT, but I know both the wholesaler and the retailer and trust them explicitly.

PBT died, my thinking was internal parasite, but not relevant, and I think it brought Ich into my system.

Now my Porky is covered and breathing heavily for the past week. I have FW dipped him, and FW + IchX dipped him 3 times, which helps, but I think is just causing him stress now.

Other fish are flashing very occasionally, but otherwise seem unaffected.

My question is this:

• Copper is not an option without removing the moray
• CP is not an option without removing the wrasse

So, do I pull all the rock, try to rip the wrasse out and use CP?
Pull all the rock and rip the eel out and use copper?
Try to remove all the fish and do a 30-day TTM process while hitting the DT with CP?

I do not have CP on hand and may have to wait to get it. In the meantime I was thinking of trying the Rally Pro Ruby and Kick-Ich combo to see if I could get it down.

Just need some thought-partnership on how to handle this. One big consideration is, I have very limited space and equipment, which means no extra tanks, filters, etc.

Anyone got advice (and something more than anecdotal, what was read on the Interwebz, info)?

Thanks in advance. Really don't want to lose any of these guys, and the Porky is my daughter's fave, so it would be tough...

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I remember the seahorse.org web site!

So - assuming you have an accurate diagnosis of ich and that you can move the invertebrates to another tank, I wonder if hyposalinity would be an option? The eel will tolerate that. Here is a thread I posted on that:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

I hesitate to recommend chloroquine in established tanks as it will kill off your entire microbiome and possibly result in an ammonia spike. Here is an article I wrote on it though:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

You could use coppersafe and would most likely just see the moray go off feed during the treatment, but I try to avoid using coppersafe in tanks with calcareous rocks and sand - it makes maintaining a constant dose more difficult, and then the rock may not be fit later on in tanks with invertebrates.

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Hey Jay! Thanks for the response, and great to re-connect with you.

I have an update, and some thoughts to vet, if you don't mind hearing them.

It was a long weekend... lost my porky puffer on Wednesday, then lost my male clown Saturday morning, and female was swimming in the powerhead and pretty spotty.

Had been dosing H2O2, per a great bit of info over on HumbleFish, but then read much more on H2O2 and found a study that says the cell wall of the C. irritans theront may be too thick for the peroxide to tear apart, and that its efficacy as a treatment is not great.

So, I took my remaining fish, a female clown, leopard wrasse, snowflake moray, and long-nosed hawk and moved them to a bare 10g tank. Gonna do a 30 day TTM with them.

Why 30? Well, here is my thinking...

My DT has water, sand, hermits and snails in it right now. All of the rock is currently out, but was planning on putting it back in.

The plan was to remove the inverts and put them into TTM with the fish. Then I was gonna do a 30 day nuke with either copper or chloroquine on the DT.

I am leaning toward copper because it is cheaper and easier to get, and since chloroquine only treats the theronts as well, there is no reason to go that route.

Old school thinking was that copper in sand and rock can leach out and kill corals if it was EVER used, but I have seen a good amount of info showing that that is no longer the current view, and removing copper with cuprisorb or poly pads.

Given that there are no fish in the tank, I could just BOMB it with high-dose copper for the 30 days.

That leaves the tomonts (cysts in the substrate), which I figured I could try to pull as many as possible out by vacuuming.

After 30 days, the DT should be (mostly) clean. Fish and inverts will have nothing on them.

Any thoughts on that??

 

[MythosRaconteur]

For quick reference, I am running a 55g with a Penn Plax Cascade 1000, Fluval Clarifier (CCFL UV), and that is it.

 

[MythosRaconteur]

So... here is a radical thought... I can go through 30 days of difficulty with the hope of 100% eradication, trying to save the rock and sand, essentially. That amounts to about $250 worth of materials. Maybe less...

What if I just dump the rock and sand. Sterilize the tank. Finish a ~16 day TTM and start fresh?

100% eradication.

Then, any new fish I get, I already have the TTM setup, so I run them through it for the same period, and ensure I do not get ich again.

Any holes in that thinking? Basically, I am saying I would pay $250 to not have the 30 days of hassle with a sub-optimal outcome, since, even if I nuke the DT with copper for 30 days, there COULD be tomonts that do not hatch during that time (I have read they can last up to 76 days).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey Jay! Thanks for the response, and great to re-connect with you.

I have an update, and some thoughts to vet, if you don't mind hearing them.

It was a long weekend... lost my porky puffer on Wednesday, then lost my male clown Saturday morning, and female was swimming in the powerhead and pretty spotty.

Had been dosing H2O2, per a great bit of info over on HumbleFish, but then read much more on H2O2 and found a study that says the cell wall of the C. irritans theront may be too thick for the peroxide to tear apart, and that its efficacy as a treatment is not great.

So, I took my remaining fish, a female clown, leopard wrasse, snowflake moray, and long-nosed hawk and moved them to a bare 10g tank. Gonna do a 30 day TTM with them.

Why 30? Well, here is my thinking...

My DT has water, sand, hermits and snails in it right now. All of the rock is currently out, but was planning on putting it back in.

The plan was to remove the inverts and put them into TTM with the fish. Then I was gonna do a 30 day nuke with either copper or chloroquine on the DT.

I am leaning toward copper because it is cheaper and easier to get, and since chloroquine only treats the theronts as well, there is no reason to go that route.

Old school thinking was that copper in sand and rock can leach out and kill corals if it was EVER used, but I have seen a good amount of info showing that that is no longer the current view, and removing copper with cuprisorb or poly pads.

Given that there are no fish in the tank, I could just BOMB it with high-dose copper for the 30 days.

That leaves the tomonts (cysts in the substrate), which I figured I could try to pull as many as possible out by vacuuming.

After 30 days, the DT should be (mostly) clean. Fish and inverts will have nothing on them.

Any thoughts on that??

Yes - peroxide is really iffy for treating marine ich. It may or may not kill the tomite stage at lower doses, but the only real study that was done for Amyloodinium was at a high dose, as a dip (then move the fish to a new tank). Extrapolating that down for a low dose bath may or may not work.... I found that ornamental shrimp are sensitive to it. Also, the organic loading of each tank is different. That means the level of reactive peroxide is going to be different for each tank - you really need to test for activity to know how much available peroxide has been eaten up by existing organics.

While I've not tried what you are describing, that is mostly because I would have grave misgivings in doing that. Nuking a tank with copper just isn't a good sterilization method. You would be better off sterilizing the tank with bleach and then resetting the cycle again. I would choose chloroquine over copper if you don't want to go the bleach route.

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

All good stuff, thanks.

I think I may be losing my female clown, but all of the fish are in the first tank for TTM.

The problem with going the chloroquine route, as I see it, is, #1 unless I go more than 30 days I am not 100% sure I got em all, and #2 it is really expensive, I am seeing like $150 for 100mg or something like that.

I think my plan is, pull the hermits and snails and put them in the TTM tank with the fish, then dump the rock and sand. Bleach the tank and let it dry to sterilize it.

Then add new water, sand, and rock. Once the TTM is done, I will put the fish back.

One thing about this... is it possible for any of the ich stages to be in my filter media? I have coarse sponge, floss, and a bit of zeolite. Should I just toss all of that too and sterilize the filter as well?

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Jay Hemdal]

All good stuff, thanks.

I think I may be losing my female clown, but all of the fish are in the first tank for TTM.

The problem with going the chloroquine route, as I see it, is, #1 unless I go more than 30 days I am not 100% sure I got em all, and #2 it is really expensive, I am seeing like $150 for 100mg or something like that.

I think my plan is, pull the hermits and snails and put them in the TTM tank with the fish, then dump the rock and sand. Bleach the tank and let it dry to sterilize it.

Then add new water, sand, and rock. Once the TTM is done, I will put the fish back.

One thing about this... is it possible for any of the ich stages to be in my filter media? I have coarse sponge, floss, and a bit of zeolite. Should I just toss all of that too and sterilize the filter as well?

Cheers,

Chris

Yes - ich tomonts, the resting stage, can be really anywhere in the tank. Most are in the sand, but some will get trapped in the filter as well.

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

I figured as much.

I am 40 hours or so in on the first tank of the TTM, female clown is looking MUCH better. I think getting her out of the H2O2 and into a place where she is not getting bombarded with theronts is helping.

DT is empty of water. Gonna dump the sand, clean everything, and let it all dry out for the next several days, while I wait for new sand to come.

Realized I can just dry out my rock as well and not have to replace it.

Apparently, per this study https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/fa164, 24 hours of desiccation will kill the tomonts. I figure 3-5 days will be sufficient to ensure everything is dry - rock, tank, equipment, etc.

This was my first big ich outbreak, but also my first FOWLR attempt. Lots to learn here, and some things I just let myself be lazy about. Hopefully on the back side of it all now.

Thanks a million, Jay. I appreciate you!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I figured as much.

I am 40 hours or so in on the first tank of the TTM, female clown is looking MUCH better. I think getting her out of the H2O2 and into a place where she is not getting bombarded with theronts is helping.

DT is empty of water. Gonna dump the sand, clean everything, and let it all dry out for the next several days, while I wait for new sand to come.

Realized I can just dry out my rock as well and not have to replace it.

Apparently, per this study https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/fa164, 24 hours of desiccation will kill the tomonts. I figure 3-5 days will be sufficient to ensure everything is dry - rock, tank, equipment, etc.

This was my first big ich outbreak, but also my first FOWLR attempt. Lots to learn here, and some things I just let myself be lazy about. Hopefully on the back side of it all now.

Thanks a million, Jay. I appreciate you!

Just remember that seawater doesn't really dry well (the salts are strongly hydroscopic). You should not rely on desiccation unless you soak everything in freshwater first.

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Ok, so quick update...

I have broken my DT down.

Filter, UV, heater, and all tubing, pipes, etc. have been scrubbed in 110-degree-plus water, bleached, and dried for several days. I am sure that there are tiny areas I may have missed inside the housing of the Penn Plax Cascade, but I got in with bottle brushes as deeply as I could, everywhere I could.

Everything has been drying for several days now, and will for another 1-2 before I start reassembling.

Emptying the remaining water and sand from DT today. Will scrub and bleach it tonight, and the let it air dry until new sand comes on Monday.

Decided to keep rock, but it has been out in the sun for the past 3 days to dry out as well.

My plan is, Monday or Tuesday will make 4+ days for everything to dry, and new sand arrives. I will put sand and rock in tank, and reconnect filter, UV, heater and all plumbing, and then rapid-cycle with Dr. Tim's.

Tank will have 10 days or so to stabilize before the fish are ready to return. Plan is to do 5-6 72-hour transfers total, just to be sure. Decided to extend just because I am not rinsing or dipping the fish between transfers as to keep stress on them as low as possible, so I thought an extra transfer or two will handle any stray theronts that may have attached early on.

More as it evolves.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok, so quick update...

I have broken my DT down.

Filter, UV, heater, and all tubing, pipes, etc. have been scrubbed in 110-degree-plus water, bleached, and dried for several days. I am sure that there are tiny areas I may have missed inside the housing of the Penn Plax Cascade, but I got in with bottle brushes as deeply as I could, everywhere I could.

Everything has been drying for several days now, and will for another 1-2 before I start reassembling.

Emptying the remaining water and sand from DT today. Will scrub and bleach it tonight, and the let it air dry until new sand comes on Monday.

Decided to keep rock, but it has been out in the sun for the past 3 days to dry out as well.

My plan is, Monday or Tuesday will make 4+ days for everything to dry, and new sand arrives. I will put sand and rock in tank, and reconnect filter, UV, heater and all plumbing, and then rapid-cycle with Dr. Tim's.

Tank will have 10 days or so to stabilize before the fish are ready to return. Plan is to do 5-6 72-hour transfers total, just to be sure. Decided to extend just because I am not rinsing or dipping the fish between transfers as to keep stress on them as low as possible, so I thought an extra transfer or two will handle any stray theronts that may have attached early on.

More as it evolves.

That sounds like more than sufficient to remove the chance of parasites. Just monitor the ammonia levels after you add the fish, in case the Dr. Tim's doesn't manage it.

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Fish are all doing well. Got a good rotation system going.

DT is back up and running. Added Dr. Tim's and check ammonia, so far ~0.1ppm has been the spike.

My one final concern is the CuC and corals. My concern, and I know it is a bit paranoid, is that there could be long-lived tomonts on the shells of the snails, hermits, or coral bases.

Corals are all soft, colt, ricordea, a couple of other mushrooms, and a small zoo colony. All on ceramic bases, so I was able to TTM the inverts and corals (in a separate tank from the fish).

Think that will be enough?

I know that tomont phase has been reported between 2 and 76 days (was just reading about how the data on the 76 may be suspect)... All in all, fish and inverts will have spent 15-20 days in 72-hour transfers (5-6).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Fish are all doing well. Got a good rotation system going.

DT is back up and running. Added Dr. Tim's and check ammonia, so far ~0.1ppm has been the spike.

My one final concern is the CuC and corals. My concern, and I know it is a bit paranoid, is that there could be long-lived tomonts on the shells of the snails, hermits, or coral bases.

Corals are all soft, colt, ricordea, a couple of other mushrooms, and a small zoo colony. All on ceramic bases, so I was able to TTM the inverts and corals (in a separate tank from the fish).

Think that will be enough?

I know that tomont phase has been reported between 2 and 76 days (was just reading about how the data on the 76 may be suspect)... All in all, fish and inverts will have spent 15-20 days in 72-hour transfers (5-6).

The risk of tomont transfer diminishes over time, and with water changes (i.e., moving the animal to a clean tank). Nobody can tell you exactly how long it will take, too many variables.

76 days is the absolute worst case scenario, taken from a lab study in bacteria free water in cool temperatures. Real world times range from 45 to 60 days. 30 days is sufficient for invertebrates that came from a tank with no active infections. Two days is more like the minimum time that tomonts will take to release theronts.

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Given that my inverts were in the DT when the outbreak occurred, and that they have already gone through a couple of transfers to clean water, would you recommend the full 30 days, or is the likelihood of any of them carrying tomonts so low that they could go back sooner?

 

[MythosRaconteur]

I am trying DESPERATELY to be patient, and I know it is for the best, but my anthropomorphizing-brain is making me hear the fish gripe about how bored they are in their tiny tank...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Given that my inverts were in the DT when the outbreak occurred, and that they have already gone through a couple of transfers to clean water, would you recommend the full 30 days, or is the likelihood of any of them carrying tomonts so low that they could go back sooner?

Personally, I'd go 45 days for invertebrates that came from a tank with an active infection.

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Ok, I figured, but just wanted to hear from someone else. I appreciate it.

Water changes are not necessary, yeah? Other than to keep ammonia levels down.

Once the tomonts hatch, there is nothing for the theronts to feed on so they die. We are just giving 45 days for that to happen. Is that correct?

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Ok, fish went back into DT yesterday. Everyone looking good, eating, happy with the new space. Zero signs of velvet or ich. Will keep vigilant for the next few days as they settle in.

I figure if swapping them from tank to tank was particularly stressful, and then dumping them into a brand new environment was adding to that stress, any pathogen would have ample time to express if it were present. At least that is the story I am telling myself...

Corals and CuC are still in QT, and I will leave them there for another 30 days (total of 45).