Ich still in QT after 30 days with cupramine

[DaddyFish]

I found that the simple API test kit works well with Coppersafe - but with one important caveat, I read the results on a custom curve I made for a Hach spectrophotometer - I can't eyeball it at all (grin).

Jay

I've been experimenting with color checking apps under controlled lighting conditions for reading vials. It sucks being colorblind.

Even the young eyes in my household can't read test results much better than I can. I rarely get different results from them, but it makes me feel better when they argue over the results.

Australia is just too far for me to drive and borrow your spectrophotometer!

 

[Keen4]

You can use prime, but you need to allow at minimum 24 hrs for it to sit in the new water before treating with cupramine or you can kill the fish

I know that now. Ive just decided to trash my seachem products. I went with some microbelift Nught out and Xtreme. Also started the QT over with new water and bio balls and bio rings from my 13 gallon DT sump. No copper for now just observing and the fish are swimming like the were before and acting normal. I’ve been feeding them very well twice a day with 3 different types of brine frozen blocks that I rinse off and strain before soaking in Fish Solution. One of the brine blocks has cod oil with helps to strengthen the tangs livers and immune system. If you know of any other fish oil foods or products I can give them please share. Been soaking my nori in the Fish Solution as well.

 

[Keen4]

It might be the only option this person has, no need to bash on them for using it.

Honestly I went with it because Hinblefish mentioned it somewhere in the feed on that site. Big mistake for me since I also misunderstood his directions to raise copper to 2.5 over a period of 4 days. I now have copper power which is safer. Cupramine is garbage.

 

[Keen4]

I second the vote for straight to CopperSafe if available. I've battled Ich and Velvet several times in different tanks over the past year using Ich-X, Formalin, Cupramine, Herbal something-another... lots of dead fish and almost no positive outcomes until I switched to CopperSafe.

Freshwater dip and straight to a full-dose Fritz CopperSafe environment is my go-to treatment now.

Agreed! I only trust Hanna checkers now.
I also gave up testing CopperSafe with anything other than a Hanna checker. You're better off just being careful about the dosage, pre-dose all water changes for that exact volume of water and trust the level is correct. Seachem Copper Test will return wild results both low and high. Salifert is difficult to interpret and typically returns a false slightly high. Hanna checker is spot-on for copper.

 

[Keen4]

Guy at my LFS told me tht cupramine requires you to only use their test kit for copper. *eye roll*

 

[Keen4]

Yep, Cupramine is an ionic copper. Both Copper Power and CopperSafe or chelated coppers. This is likely why Seachem doesn’t recommend Cupramine to be used with ammonia reducers. It’s a different form of copper that may have to potential to become very toxic and kill your fish. Not saying it will, but I don’t think you wanna test that with fish in the tank.

If anybody wants to test it. Dose a 5 gallon with the appropriate dose and test with the Hanna copper meter. After dosing check 5 min, 30 min, 1 hr, 2 hrs, etc.

- so the combination of Prime and Cupramine doesn’t create another chemical in the water that is toxic, it just creates higher levels of copper?

 

[Reefahholic]

Gosh I am such an idiot. How the hell did I not read humblefish’s qt for copper directions correctly. Yes your right- he clearly states nothing about cupramine and mentions dosing Copper Power slowly in a 48hr period to 1.5 then another 48 hrs to 2.5. For some reason I thought he meant ANY kind of copper treatment. Then I freaked out when I saw my ammonia level dark green on the api test kit and did a water change and dosed Prime. After reading online I realized that I created a toxic environment waking up to a dead yellow tang. Then 12 hrs later a dead black velvet damsel. Then later on a dead mandarin goby. I’ve since started the QT over with bio balls and bio rings from my DT sump and dosed night out and been observing with no copper treatment. I have copper power now. I just want to monitor the ammonia before I continue. It’s not dark green that’s for sure. Seems stable for now and no signs of ich or stress. Fins are healing up.

It happens bro. In my experience and many others Copper Power is very stable and easily calculated. IMO it’s better than Cupramine and Coppersafe. The Hanna Copper Checker is a must have for proper therapeutic levels. You can also buy a ammonia alert badge which can help give you a heads up before things get too toxic. Good luck man!

 

[Reefahholic]

- so the combination of Prime and Cupramine doesn’t create another chemical in the water that is toxic, it just creates higher levels of copper?

This is what they say. Prime essentially breaks the stable form of Cupramine Copper (Cu2+) and creates a toxic form (Cu+). I’ve never tested that claim, because these days I’d rather just use Copper Power. It’s the best on the market IMO. Not a big fan of CopperSafe. Tried a bottle and directly afterwards tried Copper Power and never looked back.

 

[Reefahholic]

You can use prime, but you need to allow at minimum 24 hrs for it to sit in the new water before treating with cupramine or you can kill the fish

How did you come to this conclusion. Have you tested it?

 

[Sleeping Giant]

How did you come to this conclusion. Have you tested it?

Sorry, 48 hours

 

[Reefahholic]

Sorry, 48 hours

They say and continue to say...do not mix/dose Prime with Cupramine. Avoid it. Dosing 48 hrs / 2 days prior is not combining the medication with the Reducer. Let’s be very clear before somebody kills a bunch of fish.

People prefer to use Prime while fish are actively being treated in Copper to reduce ammonia in smaller tanks. So dosing 48 hours prior will not help them much. You can easily do a water change instead of taking the risk or simply switch to Copper Power (which is safer and more stable Copper) and you can dose Prime with it. I’d avoid playing around with something that may nuke all of your fish.

Best of luck!

 

[Keen4]

The QT def needs to be fully cycled before using it.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

They say and continue to say...do not mix/dose Prime with Cupramine. Avoid it. Dosing 48 hrs / 2 days prior is not combining the medication with the Reducer. Let’s be very clear before somebody kills a bunch of fish.

People prefer to use Prime while fish are actively being treated in Copper to reduce ammonia in smaller tanks. So dosing 48 hours prior will not help them much. You can easily do a water change instead of taking the risk or simply switch to Copper Power (which is safer and more stable Copper) and you can dose Prime with it. I’d avoid playing around with something that may nuke all of your fish.

Best of luck!

Prime is to be used as a water conditioner, not to be added directly to a copper treated tank as you would do in your DT.. although I wouldn't do that either.
The only solution to bring down ammonia is water changes. Adding more chemical and not changing the water is just a bandaid

 

[pixelhustler]

Gosh I am such an idiot. How the hell did I not read humblefish’s qt for copper directions correctly. Yes your right- he clearly states nothing about cupramine and mentions dosing Copper Power slowly in a 48hr period to 1.5 then another 48 hrs to 2.5. For some reason I thought he meant ANY kind of copper treatment. Then I freaked out when I saw my ammonia level dark green on the api test kit and did a water change and dosed Prime. After reading online I realized that I created a toxic environment waking up to a dead yellow tang. Then 12 hrs later a dead black velvet damsel. Then later on a dead mandarin goby. I’ve since started the QT over with bio balls and bio rings from my DT sump and dosed night out and been observing with no copper treatment. I have copper power now. I just want to monitor the ammonia before I continue. It’s not dark green that’s for sure. Seems stable for now and no signs of ich or stress. Fins are healing up.

I also had to restart the treatment with Copper Safe and I bought a Hannah Checker. I don’t recommend Copper Safe simply because the dose on the bottle doesn’t match the therapeutic dose - I’ve since stumbled upon a few threads here talking about it. I burned through a bunch of reagents to get the dose right. So I’m trashing both Cupramine and CS bottles and will use Copper Power in the future.

I also recommend the Seachem ammonia alert badge. I have it in a high flow area and it works pretty well with both cupramine and chelated copper. I had an ammonia spike at the start of QT and lost a copperband and a powder blue tang. I learned the hard way but haven’t lost anything ever since and I’m almost done with quarantine now.