Ich

[Jennifish]

Yes another Ich thread….

Ich - stupid crappy Ich…

I quarantine my fish, but something has brought it into my DT. I’ve installed a UV (an oversized Eheim reeflex) and I’m feeding my fish with garlic and vitamin laced food as a management route as there is is absolutely no way I can catch out my royal gramma or pinstripe wrasse, and breakdown isn’t an option unfortunately…

I’ve been through at least 3 lifecycles of the parasite and it gets worse every time - this bout my gramma has stopped eating so I’m expecting to loose him tbh… but I don’t understand why they get it every time. From all the management threads I’ve read it should really only pop up due to stress or if they’re low - the only issue I can potentially plug as a stressor would be a noisy Wavemaker which vibrates and clicks every time it comes on … could this be enough to cause chronic stress in all the fish?

Edit to say, water parameters are all good - if anything I overtest my water, I’m a bit of a mad scientist when it comes to that side…

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes another Ich thread….

Ich - stupid crappy Ich…

I quarantine my fish, but something has brought it into my DT. I’ve installed a UV (an oversized Eheim reeflex) and I’m feeding my fish with garlic and vitamin laced food as a management route as there is is absolutely no way I can catch out my royal gramma or pinstripe wrasse, and breakdown isn’t an option unfortunately…

I’ve been through at least 3 lifecycles of the parasite and it gets worse every time - this bout my gramma has stopped eating so I’m expecting to loose him tbh… but I don’t understand why they get it every time. From all the management threads I’ve read it should really only pop up due to stress or if they’re low - the only issue I can potentially plug as a stressor would be a noisy Wavemaker which vibrates and clicks every time it comes on … could this be enough to cause chronic stress in all the fish?

Edit to say, water parameters are all good - if anything I overtest my water, I’m a bit of a mad scientist when it comes to that side…

Ich management rarely works and is often used as a short cut. Garlic and vitamins are immunity boosters and not a cure or remedy for disease. You mentioned ich but did not mention what type of fish and pics under white light intensity would be helpful with assessment.
Coppersafe will prove most effective being administered in a separate treatment tank for a FULL 320 days. Hanna copper kit will likely be best kit for monitoring copper level an at this point it would be best to leave display tank Fallow (no fish for 8 weeks)

 

[Jennifish]

I’m fully aware nothing I’m doing will cure the Ich - but at present I’m unable to go fallow as I cannot catch out the wrasse and gramma. I have a lot of coral attached to rocks that spreads over several sections and it would be impossible to break down to catch the two without causing damage and loss. There is only a pair of clowns, the royal gramma and the pin stripe wrasse in the tank along with trochus snails, turbos, cleaner shrimp, a Pom Pom crab and a humbug squat lobster.

I’m trying to make small fish traps to catch them as stress free as possible, but currently just trying to keep stress to a minimum to keep them as healthy as possible while I try to catch.

I just want to know if a noisy wavemaker, which clicks and vibrates as it starts every 10 seconds is enough to be a cause of chronic stress.

 

[Paul B]

Ich management rarely works and is often used as a short cut.

OMG Blasphemy.
But Vetteguy is correct. It only works in my tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’m fully aware nothing I’m doing will cure the Ich - but at present I’m unable to go fallow as I cannot catch out the wrasse and gramma. I have a lot of coral attached to rocks that spreads over several sections and it would be impossible to break down to catch the two without causing damage and loss. There is only a pair of clowns, the royal gramma and the pin stripe wrasse in the tank along with trochus snails, turbos, cleaner shrimp, a Pom Pom crab and a humbug squat lobster.

I’m trying to make small fish traps to catch them as stress free as possible, but currently just trying to keep stress to a minimum to keep them as healthy as possible while I try to catch.

I just want to know if a noisy wavemaker, which clicks and vibrates as it starts every 10 seconds is enough to be a cause of chronic stress.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Ich management usually fails once the trophont count on the fish goes above a certain level - when the propagule pressure of the theronts in the water is enough stress on the fish to override any stress reduction that you have put in place.

If that is your only option though, read the first page of this thread for some other techniques that you should employ:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Reefin Aint Easy]

Ich management rarely works and is often used as a short cut. Garlic and vitamins are immunity boosters and not a cure or remedy for disease. You mentioned ich but did not mention what type of fish and pics under white light intensity would be helpful with assessment.
Coppersafe will prove most effective being administered in a separate treatment tank for a FULL 320 days. Hanna copper kit will likely be best kit for monitoring copper level an at this point it would be best to leave display tank Fallow (no fish for 8 weeks)

320 days in Coppersafe?

Typo! Haha

 

[vetteguy53081]

320 days in Coppersafe?

Typo! Haha

30 days-oops

 

[Paul B]

320 days in Coppersafe?

I just figured it out. My tank has gone 16,425 days so far using "ich management". No problems yet but the day is young.

 

[Jennifish]

I just figured it out. My tank has gone 16,425 days so far using "ich management". No problems yet but the day is young.

What’s your routine??

 

[MnFish1]

Yes another Ich thread….

Ich - stupid crappy Ich…

I quarantine my fish, but something has brought it into my DT. I’ve installed a UV (an oversized Eheim reeflex) and I’m feeding my fish with garlic and vitamin laced food as a management route as there is is absolutely no way I can catch out my royal gramma or pinstripe wrasse, and breakdown isn’t an option unfortunately…

I’ve been through at least 3 lifecycles of the parasite and it gets worse every time - this bout my gramma has stopped eating so I’m expecting to loose him tbh… but I don’t understand why they get it every time. From all the management threads I’ve read it should really only pop up due to stress or if they’re low - the only issue I can potentially plug as a stressor would be a noisy Wavemaker which vibrates and clicks every time it comes on … could this be enough to cause chronic stress in all the fish?

Edit to say, water parameters are all good - if anything I overtest my water, I’m a bit of a mad scientist when it comes to that side…

There are a number of variables, source of the fish, stocking density (the more fish 'surface area' the more ich), etc etc. IMHO - people trying these methods are successful not because of their specific method (i.e. low stress, live food, etc), but rather something else in their specific tank - i.e. the answer to your question is unanswerable.

 

[MnFish1]

I just figured it out. My tank has gone 16,425 days so far using "ich management". No problems yet but the day is young.

The truth is, Ich management rarely works. Your tank is an exception. Not a rule IMHO

 

[Paul B]

What’s your routine??

To much to write here and it isn't my thread but it's basically opposite of just about everything you will read on all forums. I have a long thread on here and I wrote a book. It is under this post unless you are reading this on a phone.

My thread is almost 500 pages long so I wouldn't read the entire thing.

Tank birthday, 47+ years

In a couple of weeks my reef will will have reached 40 years old. Unfortunately I don't remember when I was 40 but I remember when I set it up. I was a skinny 22 year old just back from Viet Nam. It is still running very well, still using the same reverse UG filter, same dolomite substrait but...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Paul B]

The truth is, Ich management rarely works. Your tank is an exception. Not a rule IMHO

I know, it's magic.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I know, it's magic.

Indeed. My concern is that other people will not see the same success that you have and will lose fish trying to emulate your tank.

 

[Paul B]

They may and I never ask Noobs to use my system as new tanks run by Noobs will not be successful no matter what system you use. But IMO after the tank has a few years on it and you know what you are doing, a natural system where all the fish are immune seems like the best option to me as there is no observation, quarantine or medications needed and thats the way fish live in the sea.

I don't want people to emulate my tank, I want them to emulate the sea because we are keeping a coral reef and all coral reefs come from the sea, not a drug store.

Of course you have to follow the entire method and that means "no" dry food. (not even Quality dry foods, whatever that means) Food with "living" gut bacteria a couple of times a week. (That does not mean Pro Biotics) That means food "not" from a LFS but from a place you buy fresh fish for Humans. (Clams or mussels are the best, send me the oysters)

Aquascape designed for the fish, not us. Many places, caves and tunnels where the fish are out of sight and can't see you and you can't see them. That is the entire system and I don't think it is difficult if it is "Followed" exactly as I said.

If medications, quarantine dry food or improper aquascape is used. Quarantine and medication would be the way to go as my system won't work at all and people will blame me like they do when they do it wrong.

 

[MnFish1]

I know, it's magic.

I wasn't trying to be insulting. I don't see any-one 'blaming you' - I was only making the point that very few people have replicated your success, even when using your methods. The reason for that is probably that they aren't as experienced or don't pay as much attention to the tank that you do - after all most people haven't also written a book.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

They may and I never ask Noobs to use my system as new tanks run by Noobs will not be successful no matter what system you use. But IMO after the tank has a few years on it and you know what you are doing, a natural system where all the fish are immune seems like the best option to me as there is no observation, quarantine or medications needed and thats the way fish live in the sea.

I don't want people to emulate my tank, I want them to emulate the sea because we are keeping a coral reef and all coral reefs come from the sea, not a drug store.

Of course you have to follow the entire method and that means "no" dry food. (not even Quality dry foods, whatever that means) Food with "living" gut bacteria a couple of times a week. (That does not mean Pro Biotics) That means food "not" from a LFS but from a place you buy fresh fish for Humans. (Clams or mussels are the best, send me the oysters)

Aquascape designed for the fish, not us. Many places, caves and tunnels where the fish are out of sight and can't see you and you can't see them. That is the entire system and I don't think it is difficult if it is "Followed" exactly as I said.

If medications, quarantine dry food or improper aquascape is used. Quarantine and medication would be the way to go as my system won't work at all and people will blame me like they do when they do it wrong.

Paul, I know that people will tend pick and choose the advice they use. That’s why I am 100% clear when I write that ich management is not a preferred method, but that it sometimes works if you use EVERY technique at the same time.

When I hear somebody say that they don’t need to worry about fish disease because they are feeding live clams, or live black worms, I know that they got this from you and that you were not emphatic enough in stating that people cannot just pick and choose some of your ideas.

Jay

 

[wheels4896]

The only thing I'm aware of that is relatively safe in your DT while still being potentially effective for a treatment is H2O2 dosing. Your zoas will be upset and any shrimp are likely to die, but everything else seems to do OK. Cleared velvet out of my system despite not being able to go fallow (similar reason to you, couldn't catch my firefish). Results are not consistent for ich unfortunately.

 

[Paul B]

When I hear somebody say that they don’t need to worry about fish disease because they are feeding live clams, or live black worms, I know that they got this from you

Yes Jay this is a problem and I can't help that. Clams and worms are one part. But it's the same problem if people quarantine and add another fish in the middle of the quarantine process, or don't use the proper amount of copper for the correct amount of time. Any method has problems if it isn't followed correctly which is why so many fish in this hobby are dying for stupid reasons.

If people are lazy they are going to fail no matter what they do. These are living animals and any flaw in their treatment will cause them to die and they will blame the current methods they are using even if they do it wrong.

I get that all the time, what you just said. "So all I have to do is feed clams and worms and I don't have to quarantine?". I never said or implied that.

People write me all the time and tell me their fish died after following my instructions, then they say they fed quality pellets and quarantined only for a month or dosed with copper. And put the fish in a bare tank with PVC elbows. Something you may do in a quarantined system.

I post almost every day, answer numerous questions on many forums, write dozens of articles,I spoke at quite a few aquarium societies and will do it again twice in the next few months and wrote a book. What else can I do?

I invite people all the time to my home and even tell them they can bring a sick fish to throw in my tank. It is not my job to force people how to take care of their fish. Thats up to them and I say it all the time, this hobby is very easy, but we make it hard. I am an electrician with no training in aquaculture and I never lose a fish to a communicable disease. How hard can it be?

 

[Paul B]

I have a few minutes before I go on my very dark and cold walk so I will add this:

Jay, I know you are a very smart guy and I think you will realize that it is better to keep fish in a state of health where they are immune from just about everything and it doesn't matter if they come in contact with a pathogen. My tank proves that is attainable and I do very little to nothing to my tank except feed.

Yesterday I bought a chalk bass, 2 small corals and a decorator crab. With in 15 minutes they were all in my tank and I went out for dinner. (I can post that if need be)

If I were to quarantine those animals, how long would that take?
I have no doubt those creatures will be fine and will eat today and none of my fish will get sick.

I am sure you know cancer patients who had Chemo or radiation where they destroy their immune system along with their gut bacteria. Do they look or feel fine? No they don't. That is because they have no living gut bacteria therefore no immunity from anything and the slightest pathogen can kill them.

That is a quarantined or medicated fish. Same exact thing as those fish are also in a very fragile state and not in the condition they were in in the sea. Is that a healthy way to live?

But if you have a fish that was exposed to a pathogen and fights it off. Why did the fish fight it off? Because it's immunity "persuaded" the parasites to look elsewhere. Now that fish has something we can work with so why not, instead of medicating it, allow the fishes immune system to strengthen where it stays immune. That way that parasite or pathogen will never harm that fish as long as there are some living parasites in there to keep the fish "inoculated".

This only works if the fish is not stressed. A natural tank set up as I proposed will do that and as another benefit, that fish will constantly fill with eggs as it is supposed to.

My fish almost always eat the day or next day after I introduce them to my tank. Some hide but some fish hide forever as that is what some fish were designed to do.
Then if that fish goes on to live 10 or 15 years, we can call that a success if that is the fishes normal lifespan.

Just my theory of course