Ick Outbreak Worsening

[EMTX777]

Good morning, All!

I am looking for some guidance here. I have had ick in my 400 gallon tank for the last 3 years, but the outbreaks have been small and easily controlled via UV filters, frozen food with Selcon, and water changes. The fish have only shown a few spots, then gotten over it quickly. Any new fish that have been through quarantine that have been added to the tank did not present with ick at any point. In fact, it has been almost a year since the last ick outbreak.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago. I suddenly had an ick outbreak, no real reason that I can see that this would have happened. All parameters of the tank are good, no new fish added, but I know that stress of any kind can cause ick to take hold. I began my extra UV, and selcon. But, this time, the outbreak has absolutely gotten out of control, the fish are covered- including ones who have been in the tank for 2 years (I do have several who are ick free, but are very irritated by the parasites- swimming in the power heads, flashing, and etc.).

To combat this, I added yet another UV filter (I now have 4 running in this tank- each doing various GPH up to 800), added additional air, and did a couple of water changes. As of this morning, I have now lost a blenny and a long nose butterfly. I have a heniochus that is now in severe distress and covered with ick; this fish has always been a hog when eating and now has no interest in eating (he stopped eating as of this morning).

I have multiple reasons for not handling this differently. First, my 400 tank is 5 feet deep and 5 feet wide; once fish are in the tank is it impossible for me to get them out- the tank is just too deep and the rock work cannot be moved. So, moving the affected fish to quarantine would be impossible. I also have multiple urchins, snails, and hermit crabs, that I cannot remove from the tank either- so copper and hypo is out of the question.

I have reviewed other invert safe options like kick ick- but feel like that is not going to be effective. So, I guess the question to the forum is- how do I handle this from here? Any thoughts, or feedback?

And, why would I start losing fish suddenly- after this has gone on for the last 2 weeks (i.e. and now ceasing to eat)? Is there a possibility that I have a secondary bacterial thing going on? I am not seeing any signs of that though, unless I am missing something. And, what is the recommended treatment for broad spectrum bacterial infections that need to be invert safe?

Any guidance would be helpful!

Thank you!

 

[Tahoe61]

This thread probably belongs in the Fish Disease and Treatment forum. @Jay Hemdal.

 

[James CNM]

You could add many more UV's but the problem will still be there. Uv will only destroy what enters the unit when it comes to parasites, The same can be said if you were using Ozone injected into the skimmer.
Ich, ie cryptocaryon has a four stage life cycle, only the free swimming stage is when your UV may destroy them, the flip side is that you have a whole other army laying in the substrate ready to hatch with only one thing in my mind, finding a host ie your fish.

Crypto can appear to be eradicated but one day it will reappear especially adding a new fish ( I'm aware you have said you haven't add any.

Tank treatment meds are a waste of time/money.

 

[Uncle99]

IF your fish are infected with the ick parasite and they cannot be removed, I can’t see anything you can do but wait it out ensuring all remains stable.

I had the same issue 3 years ago, no way any fish coming out.

At the end of the day I got lucky maybe, ick took down only 4 of 14 fish, leaving 10 survivors. The parasite has never returned.

While it can kill ALL fish, it doesn’t always kill everyone.

The only known tried and true method is a copper based product in isolation for 30 days and a fallow DT for around 60days.

 

[winxp_man]

Only way is to let this take its course. Keep doing what your doing. Unfortunately more might possibly die. This is why I tell people management is scary because it can do sideways real fast. Ruby and kick ich will not to anything, especially for heavy infestations. And even for light infestations they seem to me as anecdotal info.

One thing I have seen some try might be H2O2 dosing, BUT that was only done with small amounts of spots. Once fish succumb to ich in a heavy infection copper is the way, and maybe a FW dip for temp relieve being copper takes a few days to start working.


Additional info.
Inch as most of these nasty disgusting diseases are a numbers game. In the vast ocean the only way it can even survive is by multiplying fast and in large numbers. So if there is a possibility of fish in the vast ocean getting any one of the big four, IMAGINE, what they can and will do in a glass cage we have our fish in! Also most tropical oceans have other organisms that feed on them, unlike out glass cages, and the suns rays of UV of various types is something we only have so much of in out systems.

In our glass cages these diseases can become major breeding grounds for these disgusting disease plane and simple.

A side note of sorts about creating breeding grounds of certain types of creatures. Here in CA the Sacramento valley has become a breeding ground for a fish called Sacramento Pike Minnow. Before dams where put in, the rivers where smaller, not as wide, and would not run as high or have standing water they way they do since the dams have been installed on all major rivers. So these fish with many rivers having very large sections with standing water that does not move much have become breeding grounds for these fish. And they are good at it to the point that they over populate and compete with other native fish that are in the system, thus shrinking numbers of many of these other native fish has taken place to a degree.

What am I getting at. As I stated above the glass cages are very much unnatural for certain organisms, and they only help promote said organisms once they are in our glass cages unfortunately ich is one of the disgusting ones. There is nothing reef safe, at the end of the day, that will save us from diseases once its in our tanks.

 

[MichaelReefer]

This is definitely a @Jay Hemdal question. Sounds to me like there isn't much you can do but wait it out and see who makes it.

 

[winxp_man]

This is definitely a @Jay Hemdal question. Sounds to me like there isn't much you can do but wait it out and see who makes it.

Nothing reef safe that can fix a sever ich infection unfortunately. Maybe one day in the future, but for now, QT is the only thing that produce a disease free tank.

 

[W31Olds]

I would make sure the Flow Rate of your UV's is targeting Marine Ich. My 80 Watt Unit runs around 300GPH. You could also try setting up a Sediment Filter System, however you would need a large Pump and this could get expensive.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Good morning, All!

I am looking for some guidance here. I have had ick in my 400 gallon tank for the last 3 years, but the outbreaks have been small and easily controlled via UV filters, frozen food with Selcon, and water changes. The fish have only shown a few spots, then gotten over it quickly. Any new fish that have been through quarantine that have been added to the tank did not present with ick at any point. In fact, it has been almost a year since the last ick outbreak.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago. I suddenly had an ick outbreak, no real reason that I can see that this would have happened. All parameters of the tank are good, no new fish added, but I know that stress of any kind can cause ick to take hold. I began my extra UV, and selcon. But, this time, the outbreak has absolutely gotten out of control, the fish are covered- including ones who have been in the tank for 2 years (I do have several who are ick free, but are very irritated by the parasites- swimming in the power heads, flashing, and etc.).

To combat this, I added yet another UV filter (I now have 4 running in this tank- each doing various GPH up to 800), added additional air, and did a couple of water changes. As of this morning, I have now lost a blenny and a long nose butterfly. I have a heniochus that is now in severe distress and covered with ick; this fish has always been a hog when eating and now has no interest in eating (he stopped eating as of this morning).

I have multiple reasons for not handling this differently. First, my 400 tank is 5 feet deep and 5 feet wide; once fish are in the tank is it impossible for me to get them out- the tank is just too deep and the rock work cannot be moved. So, moving the affected fish to quarantine would be impossible. I also have multiple urchins, snails, and hermit crabs, that I cannot remove from the tank either- so copper and hypo is out of the question.

I have reviewed other invert safe options like kick ick- but feel like that is not going to be effective. So, I guess the question to the forum is- how do I handle this from here? Any thoughts, or feedback?

And, why would I start losing fish suddenly- after this has gone on for the last 2 weeks (i.e. and now ceasing to eat)? Is there a possibility that I have a secondary bacterial thing going on? I am not seeing any signs of that though, unless I am missing something. And, what is the recommended treatment for broad spectrum bacterial infections that need to be invert safe?

Any guidance would be helpful!

Thank you!

If you can post a video of the fish in the tank under white lights, I can assess this for you better, but generally, if the number of trophonts (white spots) on any one fish are greater than 30 or so, the "ich management" techniques begin to fail. The reason is that the trophonts themselves are a stressor, and that just makes the infection worse.

There are a few other techniques that you might try to employ (daily siphoning to remove as many resting tomonts as possible, as well as careful peroxide dosing). I discuss that in this post:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-management.1028274/

 

[winxp_man]

If you can post a video of the fish in the tank under white lights, I can assess this for you better, but generally, if the number of trophonts (white spots) on any one fish are greater than 30 or so, the "ich management" techniques begin to fail. The reason is that the trophonts themselves are a stressor, and that just makes the infection worse.

There are a few other techniques that you might try to employ (daily siphoning to remove as many resting tomonts as possible, as well as careful peroxide dosing). I discuss that in this post:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-management.1028274/

Was going to say H2o2 dosing, but you better know the amount y of water you have in that tank haha. And it has to be dosed daily if I recall correctly when I did it. Lastly, as you stated about the numbers Jay, same goes for H2o2. Big numbers make it to where it’s almost not worth it. The many posts I have read about H2o2 and the experience others have had was this, and numbers problem. If ich was caught early on, works well. If not, most posts stated it did not work as planned.