ICP testing nessesary or marketing?

[Dan_P]

Is ICP testing really nessesary? Would love to hear the thoughts you have on this.

In my humble opinion ICP testing is a piece of the puzzle I which we are able these days to keep so many different types of corals and often in the same tank.

The older hobbyists maybe know that back in the days it was mostly leathers and anemones.

But in present day we can keep such a variety of species; and even without doing any waterchanges for years.

For me ICP testing is a great control to see (especially when corals are less happy and the main parameters are in check) if there is a build-up of heavy metals or, when my gionoporas and zoas are mad, to see if my trace elements are too low. Some of which you don't want to overdose and are hard to test with the regular home kits.

A part of the trace elements are already in all-in-one-dosing solutions. But in my personal experience, it is not enough. If you want to keep a mixed reef, the balance between all parameters amis very thin and that is why an ICP can give great insight in how to improve your water quality even more.

Can you reef without ICP testing? Absolutely. But you can hit a ceiling in what your tank can achieve and what kind of corals you can keep (for the long haul).

I have only been in the hobby for 5 years, with a 4 year old mixed reef tank with 0 waterchanges and a small 50g mixed reef, which is almost 5 months old. So maybe I am a newbie and disaster is waiting to be happen. But for now, I am going to the mail to post my next ICP to see if I can dare another few months without a waterchange

I liked the idea of ICP’s until I realized that the vendors do not guarantee their testing results. No vendor will tell you how accurate their results are. There is no information about precision. So when you receive your results you have no way of knowing how close the results are likely to be to reality.

So why use a ruler that could be 30 cm or 15 cm or 50 cm with mm marks of varying distances apart? Maybe it does not matter at all what you measure. More likely, it may not matter that much what you are measuring. Being off 100% is tolerable. Just knowing there is something to measure is enough.

There has always been beautiful reef tanks. I doubt very much that ICP measurements have caused a revolution in being successful. So yes, the importance of ICP measurements is most likely marketing hype and the aquarists willingness to believe it

 

[Scdell]

Again it depends on ones tank. For some reason my tank uses a lot of trace elements. I was struggling before I came across the Moonshiners program. Now I do an ICP on a monthly basis. I was real low on iodine, potassium and a few other elements. They get corrected monthly and now everything is doing great. So..........yeah for me it's a necessity. Water changes bi monthly wasn't doing it for me.

 

[RGoltz]

As I said above, and my fellow Moonshiner @Scdell is suggesting above, if you are running a program that is built around an ICP then they are necessary. It’s really that simple.

Now I could turn the tables around and ask “Are water changes really necessary?”. I think most people on R2R would say “yes” and the majority of the people that say “no” are running some program like Moonshine. Personally, I’d rather do some ICP and dose trace than do water changes.

So, it depends on the system you are using.

I don’t trust Triton testing, either.

 

[mindme]

I don’t trust Triton testing, either.

Why not? I've only done one test with them thus far, but they seemed better than the previous test I had done with the cheaper service.

Which one do you use?

Also first time I've heard of moonshine method. I did a quick google search and came across a video. I'm a little interested in that. I do the tropic marin additives into my 2 part dosing for trace elements. But with that method I'm adding all trace elements, not the specific ones. Seems like that method let's me do it per element. Like I dose iodine weekly even on top of those.

Think I might give that a try after some more research.

 

[paintman]

Why not? I've only done one test with them thus far, but they seemed better than the previous test I had done with the cheaper service.

Which one do you use?

Also first time I've heard of moonshine method. I did a quick google search and came across a video. I'm a little interested in that. I do the tropic marin additives into my 2 part dosing for trace elements. But with that method I'm adding all trace elements, not the specific ones. Seems like that method let's me do it per element. Like I dose iodine weekly even on top of those.

Think I might give that a try after some more research.

Moonshine has a facebook page.
Here is Andre store page. https://andremueller.e-junkie.com
Here is my problem with moonshine again. You spend 40 bucks to send 2 vials of your fish tank water out to California. Only to have someone put it in abox so that it can be sent to the other side of planet so that you can find out what you need to purchase from Andre in Texas. Theres just to many failure points along the way/ hands in the cookie jar.

Case in point....I sent out a sample about 2 months ago and never got my results. When I contacted ICP California about the problem, they passed the buck out to Germany. Who in turn blamed FedEx.

 

[Scdell]

Why not? I've only done one test with them thus far, but they seemed better than the previous test I had done with the cheaper service.

Which one do you use?

Also first time I've heard of moonshine method. I did a quick google search and came across a video. I'm a little interested in that. I do the tropic marin additives into my 2 part dosing for trace elements. But with that method I'm adding all trace elements, not the specific ones. Seems like that method let's me do it per element. Like I dose iodine weekly even on top of those.

Think I might give that a try after some more research.

Try it. If your dosing iodine weekly your not dosing enough if you have crabs,snails etc.

 

[Scdell]

Moonshine has a facebook page.
Here is Andre store page. https://andremueller.e-junkie.com
Here is my problem with moonshine again. You spend 40 bucks to send 2 vials of your fish tank water out to California. Only to have someone put it in abox so that it can be sent to the other side of planet so that you can find out what you need to purchase from Andre in Texas. Theres just to many failure points along the way/ hands in the cookie jar.

Case in point....I sent out a sample about 2 months ago and never got my results. When I contacted ICP California about the problem, they passed the buck out to Germany. Who in turn blamed FedEx.

None of this is a problem. Don't blame it on Moonshine. Shipping is a problem these days. I have no failure points. I make sure I have what I need on hand.

 

[RGoltz]

Send your initial sample and get the results

Moonshine has a facebook page.
Here is Andre store page. https://andremueller.e-junkie.com
Here is my problem with moonshine again. You spend 40 bucks to send 2 vials of your fish tank water out to California. Only to have someone put it in abox so that it can be sent to the other side of planet so that you can find out what you need to purchase from Andre in Texas. Theres just to many failure points along the way/ hands in the cookie jar.

Case in point....I sent out a sample about 2 months ago and never got my results. When I contacted ICP California about the problem, they passed the buck out to Germany. Who in turn blamed FedEx.

As we always say “read the handbook” but reality is that the elements are sold in bulk and should last some time before you have to purchase more. So while this is technically correct on the initial setup, this is not the regular behavior.

Regardless, every system has trade offs. I do monthly testing in exchange for water changes. But I also believe that I gain stability which cannot be maintained with water changes (or that water changes are a form of instability) and at the same time I have some insight based on the ICP. So as I have mentioned above, the real value in ICPis when it is a component of some larger system or method. Otherwise I personally would not bother.

 

[RGoltz]

Why not? I've only done one test with them thus far, but they seemed better than the previous test I had done with the cheaper service.

Which one do you use?

Also first time I've heard of moonshine method. I did a quick google search and came across a video. I'm a little interested in that. I do the tropic marin additives into my 2 part dosing for trace elements. But with that method I'm adding all trace elements, not the specific ones. Seems like that method let's me do it per element. Like I dose iodine weekly even on top of those.

Think I might give that a try after some more research.

I have used Triton and ATI. enerally speaking the Moonshine community relies on ATI as:

1. There is some belief that the results are more consistent
2. There are more micro elements tested and some of these, such as flourine, are part of the Moonshine system.
3. There are macro elements tested, which provides a double-check on your testing
4. RO is tested which provides a check on where contaminates are coming from; you know if they originate from your source or your system

 

[Scdell]

Send your initial sample and get the results


As we always say “read the handbook” but reality is that the elements are sold in bulk and should last some time before you have to purchase more. So while this is technically correct on the initial setup, this is not the regular behavior.

Regardless, every system has trade offs. I do monthly testing in exchange for water changes. But I also believe that I gain stability which cannot be maintained with water changes (or that water changes are a form of instability) and at the same time I have some insight based on the ICP. So as I have mentioned above, the real value in ICPis when it is a component of some larger system or method. Otherwise I personally would not bother.

Moonshiners is a great program. It's not for everyone though. It works for you and me but not everyone. Some people have success with this and some have success with that. It's what makes this hobby fun and interesting. No two systems are exactly the same or need the same thing.

 

[RGoltz]

Moonshiners is a great program. It's not for everyone though. It works for you and me but not everyone. Some people have success with this and some have success with that. It's what makes this hobby fun and interesting. No two systems are exactly the same or need the same thing.

I absolutely agree.

My point is that ICP provides the most value as part of a larger system. I often read “I get results and don’t know what to do with them” as an argument against ICP. In those cases it is because ICP is not part of the system being used.

There are many people having success with many methods. We could probably name a half-dozen components that aren’t necessary depending on the method you are using.

Ultimately we each need to choose some process which can be maintained for long term success.

 

[Scdell]

I absolutely agree.

My point is that ICP provides the most value as part of a larger system. I often read “I get results and don’t know what to do with them” as an argument against ICP. In those cases it is because ICP is not part of the system being used.

There are many people having success with many methods. We could probably name a half-dozen components that aren’t necessary depending on the method you are using.

Ultimately we each need to choose some process which can be maintained for long term success.

Read through the thread and see how many people complain about the cost of it. If that's the reason they're not using it then the shouldn't have a reef. I'll get bashed for this. I don't care.

 

[Susan Edwards]

I did 1 when I had tank issues. Nothing out of line on the test results. My issue was a tee'd off massive-sized leather killing my sps/lps with toxins (irritated constantly by clowns). I might consider doing one once a year or so, but didn't think the cost or the wait were worth repeating just to do them to say I did them

 

[Fish Think Pink]

I did 1 when I had tank issues. Nothing out of line on the test results. My issue was a tee'd off massive-sized leather killing my sps/lps with toxins (irritated constantly by clowns). I might consider doing one once a year or so, but didn't think the cost or the wait were worth repeating just to do them to say I did them

my test thru www.aquariumwatertesting.com came back fine, and eventually we figured out it was our toadstool leather as well (sad). Got great credit at LFS when we rehomed leather due to its big size.

too bad testing can't zero in on all problems

 

[Susan Edwards]

my test thru www.aquariumwatertesting.com came back fine, and eventually we figured out it was our toadstool leather as well (sad). Got great credit at LFS when we rehomed leather due to its big size.

too bad testing can't zero in on all problems

Yeah. They need to add toxins from corals lol's. I rehomed mine (13" head) and the new lps and sps corals are surviving! Starting a new tank in 2 weeks and no leathers! Unless a weeping willow! But no toadstools for sure

 

[Waynerock]

Been reefing since 2003 I have done a total of 3 tests and the results did not improve my tank or the hobby. They tell you what you are high or low on (maybe , there is no way to prove accuracy and You can see people sending the same water sample to multiple ICP testing companies with wildly varying results) I assume if your corals are doing weird things and dying then maybe an ICP will tell you what is out of wack, hopefully the results come back before everything gets wiped out. It’s very expensive for something that can’t be proven to be 100% accurate. Just my .02 I can think of better ways to spend 30-50 bucks.

 

[MarshallB]

Read through the thread and see how many people complain about the cost of it. If that's the reason they're not using it then the shouldn't have a reef. I'll get bashed for this. I don't care.

So because people don't agree with the cost to test their water then they shouldn't have a reef tank? Boy thats some logic. I know this might be a surprise for you, money is a limiting factor to some. Unbelievable I know.

I pity the fool that so willingly hands over money to folks who do not guarantee their results.

Anywho, it has its place. I think if there is something out of wack that you cannot pinpoint with other means then getting a read out of everything in the water, even if its not totally accurate, is really the only solution you can use.

 

[mindme]

Moonshiners is a great program. It's not for everyone though. It works for you and me but not everyone. Some people have success with this and some have success with that. It's what makes this hobby fun and interesting. No two systems are exactly the same or need the same thing.

I don't do water changes, so I think it's what I need. Right now I just dose all of them based on a preset ratio decided by tropic marine, but my usage doesn't match that ratio. Being able to address just the elements I need is a big plus.

And I don't care if people have been in the hobby for 20 years and never needed them. I've been in the hobby over 10 years and things have gotten much better in just that time. I don't need a lot of things, but it sure does make it easier. And compared to water changes, dosing and using a refugium is actually cheaper on larger tanks. People were doing fine with carburetors also, but that didn't stop fuel injection from taking over.

Problem is, my bottles of tropic marine are near full and I hate to just not use them. Think I'll just stick with it and figure something out if one trace element gets too high.

 

[mindme]

So because people don't agree with the cost to test their water then they shouldn't have a reef tank? Boy thats some logic. I know this might be a surprise for you, money is a limiting factor to some. Unbelievable I know.

I pity the fool that so willingly hands over money to folks who do not guarantee their results.

Anywho, it has its place. I think if there is something out of wack that you cannot pinpoint with other means then getting a read out of everything in the water, even if its not totally accurate, is really the only solution you can use.

Not really backing what he said as I don't worry about other peoples finances. But I think cost here isn't being compared properly. Imagine you have 200+ gallons of water. A 10% water change is 20 gallons. For 160 claimed gallons(probably closer to 140 really) of the cheaper IO, which I normally get for $50, $40 on sale. It will cost you roughly $25 a month, $300 a year. And that is just for salt.

On top of that, you've got to make all that RODI water, which means you have to pay for the water. This depends on your area, but $10 a month is my guess. And of course, increased usage of filters, which will again depend on your area. But for me that would be about another $10 per month, considering just for replacement RODI water I still have to change my filters out every 4 months(Florida water).

So looking at $500 a year or so with recommended water changes on 200g doing it the cheapest way possible, and the larger the tank the more it costs. And you are constantly having the hassle of making the water, mixing the salt, etc.

A $40 test done monthly is $480 a year. And then the cost of the elements on top, which seems to be about $250 initial investment. So about $750 a year.

Depending on your water volume I think it's likely cheaper than doing water changes. Is this a good idea for a 20g tank? Probably not, water changes are cheap, quick and easy. But on larger tanks - there is a point where it is cheaper to not do water changes and address the tanks needs directly.

And as for tests, I don't need perfection, I just need to make sure I don't have extreme levels of too high and too low.

I'm about to hit 1 year in my new tank without doing water changes, and I've learned quite a few lessons, especially about trace elements in that time(aka I let mine bottom out thinking they wouldn't get used so quickly). Currently I do tests every 4 months though.

 

[Deep]

Not really backing what he said as I don't worry about other peoples finances. But I think cost here isn't being compared properly. Imagine you have 200+ gallons of water. A 10% water change is 20 gallons. For 160 claimed gallons(probably closer to 140 really) of the cheaper IO, which I normally get for $50, $40 on sale. It will cost you roughly $25 a month, $300 a year. And that is just for salt.

On top of that, you've got to make all that RODI water, which means you have to pay for the water. This depends on your area, but $10 a month is my guess. And of course, increased usage of filters, which will again depend on your area. But for me that would be about another $10 per month, considering just for replacement RODI water I still have to change my filters out every 4 months(Florida water).

So looking at $500 a year or so with recommended water changes on 200g doing it the cheapest way possible, and the larger the tank the more it costs. And you are constantly having the hassle of making the water, mixing the salt, etc.

A $40 test done monthly is $480 a year. And then the cost of the elements on top, which seems to be about $250 initial investment. So about $750 a year.

Depending on your water volume I think it's likely cheaper than doing water changes. Is this a good idea for a 20g tank? Probably not, water changes are cheap, quick and easy. But on larger tanks - there is a point where it is cheaper to not do water changes and address the tanks needs directly.

And as for tests, I don't need perfection, I just need to make sure I don't have extreme levels of too high and too low.

I'm about to hit 1 year in my new tank without doing water changes, and I've learned quite a few lessons, especially about trace elements in that time(aka I let mine bottom out thinking they wouldn't get used so quickly). Currently I do tests every 4 months though.

Anyone can do what they like, but you should be aware that there are several things in your water that ICP does not tell you about. You have no clue about dissolved organics in the water or how much of the trace elements are actually bio-available. So blindly trusting an ICP to not do water changes is a risk. If you want to slightly mitigate that risk make sure you run carbon and/or run ozone/UV. But you still might run into other issues.

Treat ICP as extra information beyond your own testing, not something you can just blindly trust to not make water changes etc.