Instant ocean salt mix reveals ammonia

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that most salt mixes have some ammonia and it is not usually enough to be a problem.

The question is how much. You are never going to put a fish into 100% raw salt water (or shouldn't usually do so), so if it is a 10% change, for example, the tank would see only 10% of the measured amount.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sure..
While at the orchid society meeting a couple months ago, some of the mebers were Ph bragging on their Di water, and citing their sources as "best". Di ph in plants being extremely important as ph's too low will immediately "burn" a plant root and why drinking rodi may not be so good for us. Once the ladies had left, my wifes good friend and I continued the conversation as I had just gotten our rodi kit. He is a scientist working in a lab and they produce di water ao different Ph as required in some testing . I believe he said around 5.6 at the lowest. they do this with more densely packed di resins to achieve this. one caution he gave us was to make sure we used the correct water pressure as the higher pressure on the resin replicated the dense packing of their di and can lower the ph, but really just make sure you shake the bottle or just let it set around and its likely fine. As I usually do let it set anyway it's not really a problem, and most who buy it have it poured into the bucket and drive it home its not a problem. But in several instances here in r2r ive seen who have quickly set up a hospital tank make fresh rodi and mix salt into it. Once the fish went in went down hill quick. weater that was the lack of oxygen in fresh rodi or PH I cant be sure, I usually just suggest shaking up the bucket or making sure there's an air stone.
with the number of occasions Ive seen this happen Im going for low oxygen. Low oxygen, low ph, despite chemical buffering as I would assume salt mixes are aiming at a 7ph nominally.

I kinda put it out of my head as he said I couldn't have any of his high test low ph stuff anyway unless I wanted to grow Himalayan orchids and I usually let my rodi set around and I have salt water mixed incase of emergency as well. Ill google it.

edit, yea here it is.. as it sets and get gassed it drops to 7.
http://puretecwater.com/downloads/relationship-between-ph-and-deionized-water.pdf

The pH of DI water is a nonissue in every possible sense (assuming it is 0 ppm TDS). It is NEVER worth anyone who does not have highly specialized equipment even trying to measure because it will likely be inaccurate.

I discuss it here:

Reverse Osmosis/Deionization Systems to Purify Tap Water for Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

Final Effluent pH

Aside from the issues discussed above concerning the effluent’s pH when the DI resin becomes depleted, the final pH coming out of an RO/DI system should not significantly concern reef aquarists. Many aquarists with low pH problems have asked, for example, if their aquarium’s low pH may be caused by their replacing evaporated water with RO/DI water that they measure to have a pH below 7. In short, the answer is no, this is not a cause of low pH nor is it something to be generally concerned about, for the following reasons:

1. The pH of totally pure water is around 7 (with the exact value depending on temperature). As carbon dioxide from the atmosphere enters the water, the pH drops into the 6’s and even into the 5’s, depending on the amount of CO2. At saturation with the level of CO2 in normal (outside) air, the pH would be about 5.66. Indoor air often has even more CO2, and the pH can drop a bit lower, into the 5’s. Consequently, the pH of highly purified water coming from an RO/DI unit is expected to be in the pH 5-7 range.

2. The pH of highly purified water is not accurately measured by test kits, or by pH meters. There are several different reasons for this, including the fact that highly purified water has very little buffering capacity, so its pH is easily changed. Even the acidity or basicity of a pH test kit’s indicator dye is enough to alter pure water’s measured pH. As for pH meters, the probes themselves do not function well in the very low ionic strength of pure freshwater, and trace impurities on them can swing the pH around quite a bit.

3. The pH of the combination of two solutions does not necessarily reflect the average (not even a weighted average) of their two pH values. The final pH of a mixture may actually not even be between the pH’s of the two solutions when combined. Consequently, adding pH 7 pure water to pH 8.2 seawater may not even result in a pH below 8.2, but rather might be higher than 8.2 (for complex reasons relating to the acidity of bicarbonate in seawater vs. freshwater).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

edit, yea here it is.. as it sets and get gassed it drops to 7.
http://puretecwater.com/downloads/relationship-between-ph-and-deionized-water.pdf

One final comment, RO/DI water is not totally degassed of O2, but however low (or high) it might be, O2 enters it again from the air as fast or faster than into new salt water. It quickly comes out of the air, and since the solubility of O2 in RO/DI water is higher than in salt water, I can't see this being any concern.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

One final comment, RO/DI water is not totally degassed of O2, but however low (or high) it might be, O2 enters it again from the air as fast or faster than into new salt water. It quickly comes out of the air, and since the solubility of O2 in RO/DI water is higher than in salt water, I can't see this being any concern.

Thanks Randy. Quite surprised I haven't read that article. I recall binge reading what I thought was everything some years ago.
Me not being the chemist I didn't know how fast O2 would reenter the Di water and subsequently the salt mix, I did know once mixed and sits its likely fine and won't affect tank Ph.

You are never going to put a fish into 100% raw salt water (or shouldn't usually do so), so if it is a 10% change, for example, the tank would see only 10% of the measured amount.

This would likely then explain what I've seen here so frequently when a fish goes into a quickly set up Qt/Hospital. Its actually recommended to to do so.

 

[jason2459]

No animals in the house

Just checking. Many people that have cats often report of ammonia levels in their new saltmix even with the litter box in a different room and floor.

I do know that its common for newly mixed saltmixes to show nitrates or phosphates even if the brand says nitrate and phosphate frew. So, it would not surprise me or concern me if they also show some ammonia.

You can see phosphates register on several of these mixes and just because they show up once or don't show up doesn't mean they will or wont other times.
http://reef2reef.com/threads/saltmix-parameters-bring-on-the-test-results.233233/

 

[rizorido]

It is not just Instant Ocean.....all salt mixes have ammonia as a "contaminant." In an established tank, with dilution, it is quickly converted eventually to nitrate. The issue might be more of a problem if doing a very large water change. Otherwise, it's "normal."

Not when it's a new quarantine/ hospital tank !!

 

[Robthorn]

The salt is not bad. Think about what you do in your tank when fish urinate. You let bacteria take over. Throw a cup of tank water in the mix a couple days. Tropic Marin is a top brand and has had this problem many times. I always leave my new salt water mix a couple days just in case.

 

[Aznxgqboyx]

So what i end up doing was dumping the water cleaned the trash can that it was in and made new water along with the new bag of io salt.

 

[WhiskeyCoffee]

From what I remember, yellow on the API test kits equals zero right?

 

[Aznxgqboyx]

From what I remember, yellow on the API test kits equals zero right?

Yes

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not when it's a new quarantine/ hospital tank !!

Shouldn't your hospital and/or QT tanks also be cycled? If not, a fish added will shoot ammonia up.

 

[Diesel]

IMO with a well stabilized or mature ever which way you prefer it wouldn't be a problem that ammonia is up a bit with new salt.
Your system will take care of that super fast and your bacteria are thanking you for it.
I have done Triton test on my tank before a WC and did a 5% WC, week later a 10% etc etc up to 25% WC and every time I did a Triton before and after the WC.
Ammonia should up on the test but was every time the same as close to nothing.
Never did a ammonia test on my newly mixed salt water.
Now Po4 yes I did and that is a totally different puppy

 

[Newb73]

Im am starting a projecr to regularly test IO mixed water.

Will post when i have 6 months data.

It will test + for 0.25 nitrates but i admit, ammonia was not one od the parameters i even bother checking.

 

[Lou Ekus]

The salt is not bad. Think about what you do in your tank when fish urinate. You let bacteria take over. Throw a cup of tank water in the mix a couple days. Tropic Marin is a top brand and has had this problem many times. I always leave my new salt water mix a couple days just in case.

Please validate this claim. I have been the Director of US Operations for Tropic Marin for the past 20 years. Our brand has certainly been accused of many different faults that we have had to research and defend over the years, but I cannot recall even one time that we were checking batch controls for an ammonia accusation. To say that Tropic Marin "has had this problem many times" is certainly a serious piece of misinformation! I doubt we could stand up to your claim that "Tropic Marin is a top brand" if the "many times" statement were true!

 

[jason2459]

Please validate this claim. I have been the Director of US Operations for Tropic Marin for the past 20 years. Our brand has certainly been accused of many different faults that we have had to research and defend over the years, but I cannot recall even one time that we were checking batch controls for an ammonia accusation. To say that Tropic Marin "has had this problem many times" is certainly a serious piece of misinformation! I doubt we could stand up to your claim that "Tropic Marin is a top brand" if the "many times" statement were true!

Are you saying it's impossible for your saltmixes to have any amount of ammonia, nitrate, or phosphates at all?

And those that do test small amounts periodically are inferior?

 

[Newb73]

I think its the source water but some portion must be salt related.

I think Randy wrote a paper or has a post somewhere that trace amounts in the <1ppm range are common and are not a concern.

At times i get >4ppm though with instant ocean.

 

[brandon429]

Regarding ammonia in newly mixed water:

My pico reef has only had 100% changes since 2001. Using any brand of salt made avail at the time, mixed up a few minutes before usage most of the time. Not one harm
oceanic
tropic marine
rc
io
kent
esv
six more my LFS rotates in and out based on cost, I buy whatever and use whatever.

the ammonia if there, and I see a zero in the original colorimetric reading (use two tests diff brands to get an avg, better than one off api) is inconsequential in newly mixed water or it would be killing scores of picos doing full water changes.

we are dealing with one and two gallon sps reefs packed to the hilt, fine mine canaries for ammonia significance in the reef tank due to no dilution factors... I don't own an ammonia test kit in reefing and w never have to, its that predictable imo. every single significant source of ammonia can be predicted to the point we don't even have to test for it even when tank cycling, we know the time frames/submersion times required and each tank follows the same contamination pathway and timing for the ability to oxidize ammonia safely. in our pico forums which are huge and busy, we don't factor in ammonia from newly mixed water, the consideration is simply skipped.

ammonia misreads and then unneeded actions are so common its been helpful as a nontester to never have to go there, we have thousands of pico reefers doing the same thankfully.

 

[Newb73]

Well no matter what i do i get it in both freshly mixed water and in my tank.

I installed a sulfur denitrator.

Not only is ammonia not a concern in most reefs...its really not a concern in mine (i run ozone which immediately oxidizes it out on contact).

 

[Lou Ekus]

Are you saying it's impossible for your saltmixes to have any amount of ammonia, nitrate, or phosphates at all?

And those that do test small amounts periodically are inferior?

What I am saying Jason is this: In my opinion, in a freshly mixed batch of salt water that was made with good/clean RO/DI fresh water, you should not be able to test a detectable level of phosphates, nitrates and certainly NOT ammonia with hobbyist level reagent style test kits. I am also saying that you will not get detectable levels in any of the Tropic Marin salt mixes.

 

[jason2459]

What I am saying Jason is this: In my opinion, in a freshly mixed batch of salt water that was made with good/clean RO/DI fresh water, you should not be able to test a detectable level of phosphates, nitrates and certainly NOT ammonia with hobbyist level reagent style test kits. I am also saying that you will not get detectable levels in any of the Tropic Marin salt mixes.

Be careful of those claims. Is all I'm saying.