Integrating the Alkatronic, Apex and Dos for stable alkalinity AND pH.

Reefinmike

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Jail breaking the alkatronic for apex controlled dosing- chasing stable alkalinity AND pH.



I love my apex gear but couldn’t ever sell myself on the trident. Reagent cost is the biggest factor followed by availability, limited value in Ca/Mg testing, colorimeter etc. I’ve had my Alkatronic since may and LOVE it. The dosetronic is a clear easy choice to handle dosing but I didn’t like the 24 daily dose maximum, set doser speed/direction, and lack of specific control. Above all, I feel having all your control in one system is bad form. I started down the path of integrating the systems. My first method used dosing profiles and 4 tiered throttle virtual outputs. It worked well for a month but quickly became a hassle to adjust profiles as demand grew. I wanted something more adaptable and easy to adjust. I wanted to be able to set a volume in the dosing wizard to spread dosing out over the entire day. I didn’t want multiple steps and tiered intervals that each needed adjusting as my reef grew. I’ve been using my current system for a few weeks and feel it’s near perfect. Normal demand is 360-400ml a day. I set the dosing wizard for 500ml to give some room for growth and peak demand. My goal is to maintain a steady 9.7-9.8dkh.

The first hurdle was interpreting the signal. The alkatronic rounds it’s test value +/- 0.05 dkh to the closest .1 value. For instance, a 9.67 test rounds up to a 9.70 value to be sent through the BCN connection. The signal varies a bit in the apex graph and will read 9.69-9.72dkh. I set up 4 Virtual outputs- Brake_tap, Brake_Hard, Brake_slam and Dosing off. The dosing wizard isn’t entirely predictable on how it splits up dosing but it tends to be once every 15 minutes. These brakes don’t always line up perfectly but the difference ends up being a wash by the end of the day. Brake tap omits the first 15 minutes of dosing every hour for a test signal of 9.8 and above. Brake hard omits dosing between XX:30-XX:45 for a test signal of 9.9 or higher. Brake slam omits dosing from XX:45-XX:00 for a test signal of 10.0 or higher. Dosing off cuts out all dosing for a signal of 10.1 or higher.

The alkatronic is set to test every 3 hours with a forced test in an hour for values outside my 9.6-9.9 range. My programming is geared to run a high level of dosing with brakes to throttle it down. Ideally, I’ll never break the lower range. Dipping below should indicate I need to up my dose in the wizard. Brake tap can omit 1/4 of the dose for three hours until the next test. Brake hard will omit 1/2 the dose for 3 hours IF the alkatronic tests between 9.85-9.89. A 9.90+ test will force a retest in 1 hour. This gray area around a 9.9 signal to the apex causes some complications. A 9.87 test just before peak lighting could omit too much of the dose. I needed a simple way to prevent this situation. I made another virtual output Peak_Demand to turn on with my lighting and stay on until they start ramping down. When it’s ON, the brake_tap throttle is disabled

If the Alkatronic loses power or restarts for any reason it sends a default value of 7.00 until the next scheduled test. This could cause the programming to give the reef a full bore dose for up to three hours. Ideally it’d immediately test but Focustronic doesn’t see the value in that feature. I wanted to default to 1/2 dosing and send me an alert to open the app and run a manual test. The Alk_Error VO is simple OSC code that turns on/off every 30 minutes for an unexpected value.

I’m working with additives that could easily nuke my reef if the DOS went haywire or something were to inadvertently hit the prime button. It’s a great pump but also capable of dosing 1 gallon an hour. I’ve seen units where tapping the side triggers the prime buttons to dose 25ml/min. All the code in the world won’t stop a freak accident when plugged into a “Normal” household outlet. I created a VO named pH_disaster to turn on when pH is ~.07 above my normal high for 3+ minutes. It sends me an alert and cuts off the apex outlet powering my dos.

I also wanted to be alerted if my higher level brakes were enabled for more than one testing cycle. Something is seriously wrong if Brake_slam or Dosing_off is enabled for more than three hours. Brake_Stuck handles this situation

I’m two months into experimenting with lye and three weeks into my experiment of switching between additives with the aim of maintaining stable alkalinity AND pH. I struggled with low pH for years. Before all this, l averaged 7.9-8 pH with daily swings of .45. I made a pH_High and pH_Low VO to toggle between lye and soda ash based on tank pH. I managed to average 8.28 with a maximum .20 daily swing. This is about as good as anyone could expect.

Now that I’m able to get “normal” pH readings I started thinking. Low pH is almost always from CO2. The household CO2 isn’t really something I can reliably control. I’ve drawn outside air with my skimmer for years. It helped but only raised pH .1-.15 when low. I got to thinking- it’s a very efficient gas exchanger drawing a constant 400ppm CO2. I finally felt like I could shut it down and remove it from my system. I turned it off midnight Dec 10th. Within 36 hours I saw a very promising trend toward nearly perfect flatline pH. The last few days have sloppy data due to a manual bicarbonate dose I made without thinking everything through. I wanted to correct the dip from peak demand. I was considering letting the alkatronic itself handle a manual bicarbonate adjustment when low. Long story short, I intentionally dosed too much. Once the lights turned off pH tanked due to the fact my brakes cut out ~60% of the lye dose. It was interesting to see just how the system reacted and how dependent it is on the lye dosing. My programming handled it well and that promising stable pH trend seems to be resuming. Only time will tell so I’ll keep my mitts off it for a couple weeks and update here.

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Reefinmike

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Apex code
 

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Brett S

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This is really interesting. I think I will be implementing something along these lines with my trident and DOS to help with pH stability. Just off the cuff I think this will be easier to program with the trident because of the trident controlled dosing option. I’m thinking I can simply set up trident controlled dosing on both the soda ash DOS as well as the sodium hydroxide DOS and then just turn one or the other off based on the pH. I’ll have to spend a bit more time thinking about it and looking over your programs before I figure out exactly how I’m going to do it.

I also need to buy a third DOS and a second DDR. *sigh* I thought I was done spending money on the tank for this month.

What is your source for the lye additive that you are using?
 
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Reefinmike

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This is really interesting. I think I will be implementing something along these lines with my trident and DOS to help with pH stability. Just off the cuff I think this will be easier to program with the trident because of the trident controlled dosing option. I’m thinking I can simply set up trident controlled dosing on both the soda ash DOS as well as the sodium hydroxide DOS and then just turn one or the other off based on the pH. I’ll have to spend a bit more time thinking about it and looking over your programs before I figure out exactly how I’m going to do it.

I also need to buy a third DOS and a second DDR. *sigh* I thought I was done spending money on the tank for this month.

What is your source for the lye additive that you are using?
This is absolutely do-able using the trident. I toyed around with 8.20, 8.25 and 8.30 as the toggle point coming back to 8.25 twice. It definitely provides the tightest daily pH swings and most stable alkalinity.

Like you, I was VERY skeptical of co2 scrubbers. They seem costly and have the potential to do a LOT of damage if not set up with proper safeguards. Just a very volatile and wasteful solution. CO2 is the enemy- instead of removing it, why not turn it into “alkalinity” with a hydroxide ion?

I started with loudwolf lye but it’s very expensive. I switched to drain cleaner. Both have the same “food grade” purity ‍♂️. I’m using the concentration RHF recommends- 283.5 grams NaOH per gallon. Should be the same alkalinity contribution as standard 381g soda ash/ gallon.
 

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Brett S

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There is a typo in my original post... if anyone could get a moderator to fix this, I’d really appreciate it. Unfortunately it looks like original posts can’t be edited.

it should read 9.69-9.72

If you click the report button on one of your posts it will bring it to a moderator’s attention. Just let them know what you want changed and they can make the edit. You might also want to ask them to delete this post and your post above it.
 
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Reefinmike

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If you click the report button on one of your posts it will bring it to a moderator’s attention. Just let them know what you want changed and they can make the edit. You might also want to ask them to delete this post and your post above it.
Thanks, I really appreciate it!
 

Brett S

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Well, I’m committed now. I just bought a DOS and DDR from someone in the for sale forum. He’s in the same state, so hopefully it will get here before the end of the week. I also placed my order for the ‘pure’ drain cleaner on Amazon. I’ve got people coming to stay with me over the this weekend, which is usually when I see my big pH drop, so with any luck I’ll have everything in place and I won’t see such a big drop this weekend.
 

Brett S

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Hmm, as thinking about this and planning everything out I’m thinking I’m might need to move my pH probe. The probe is in my sump, but it’s downstream from where I dose. If I’m selecting an additive based on the pH I don’t want the last dose to be affecting the pH reading.

Along the same lines, I currently dose right before the fuge section of my sump. Do you think there will be an issue dosing lye in the same place? I’m concerned that the Chaeto might not be happy with the super high pH.
 
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Reefinmike

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Well, I’m committed now. I just bought a DOS and DDR from someone in the for sale forum. He’s in the same state, so hopefully it will get here before the end of the week. I also placed my order for the ‘pure’ drain cleaner on Amazon. I’ve got people coming to stay with me over the this weekend, which is usually when I see my big pH drop, so with any luck I’ll have everything in place and I won’t see such a big drop this weekend.
Great! You should only need the pH_High and pH_Low, pH_Disaster vo’s to toggle between additives. You have a good point on probe placement. I too have my probe just downstream of where I dose. It certainly does give you spikes which is why my graphs aren’t as perfect as they could be/actually are. I have all my defers set up so a normal dose doesn’t trigger any of my safety mechanisms. The three minute defer on pH_disaster keeps things from shutting down and the ten minute defer on pH_High keeps the additives from toggling too quickly. On the flip side, I’ll know ASAP if for some reason It gave me a double dose. I wouldn’t think dosing it into your cheato area would be a big issue. Just make sure you’re dosing into a very high flow area. I have a mj1200 pointing against the wall I dose near.

63D697C6-276A-4C94-B6E2-44F1BF141DFD.jpeg
 
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Reefinmike

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Hmm, as thinking about this and planning everything out I’m thinking I’m might need to move my pH probe. The probe is in my sump, but it’s downstream from where I dose. If I’m selecting an additive based on the pH I don’t want the last dose to be affecting the pH reading.
I’m interested in seeing how reactive the trident controlled dosing is when you have pH and alkalinity are more in line. You could certainly try out my whacky system of brakes if you need to fine tune things better

right now I’m looking at +/- 0.06 daily pH swings... not sure if it’s possible to get any better without compromising alkalinity stability
 

Brett S

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It has begun. The new DOS and DDR arrived today and I just spent way too many hours creating a dosing cabinet. The DOS pump I had been using for calcium chloride and soda ash had been installed above my sump here:

8868141B-FFA9-49E8-8784-5E8FBA243A50.jpeg


However as I looked at installing the new DOS next to it I realized that this was not a good location for it. It’s hard to see in the picture, but the entire pump was covered in a thick layer of salt residue. This can’t be good for it.

So I commandeered a cabinet next to my frag tank, which is next to the sump and turned it into a dosing cabinet:

1A335B0A-68BE-409D-8231-0BE2E57798F9.jpeg


I cleaned off the old DOS and installed it and the new DOS along with the two DDR’s and I made a shelf on the bottom to hold my jugs of supplements. I even went so far as to label everything because I figure with four pumps and four supplements now I’m more likely to accidentally put the wrong one in the wrong reservoir if I just rely on my memory.

Unfortunately my lye and the mixing jug for it isn’t going to be delivered until tomorrow, so I can’t actually start dosing the lye, but at least everything is ready for when it arrives.
 

Brett S

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As I’m thinking about the programming I think I’m probably initially going to set the point where it switches between soda ash and lye at a pH of 8.0. This is probably a little lower than I’ll leave it in the end, but right now with soda ash my tank ranges from 7.95 to 8.15, so I don’t want to raise it to much too quickly. Additionally I am going to have guests over this weekend, which is when the pH normally drops considerably, so I’m interested to see if the lye will be able to keep it around 8.0 all weekend.

Once I get through the weekend I’ll probably slowly raise it to around 8.25 or as high as I can go and still keep it stable during the times while there are extra people in the house.
 
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Reefinmike

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As I’m thinking about the programming I think I’m probably initially going to set the point where it switches between soda ash and lye at a pH of 8.0. This is probably a little lower than I’ll leave it in the end, but right now with soda ash my tank ranges from 7.95 to 8.15, so I don’t want to raise it to much too quickly. Additionally I am going to have guests over this weekend, which is when the pH normally drops considerably, so I’m interested to see if the lye will be able to keep it around 8.0 all weekend.

Once I get through the weekend I’ll probably slowly raise it to around 8.25 or as high as I can go and still keep it stable during the times while there are extra people in the house.
It all looks great! Sorry I forgot to mention it but I’m told HDPE recycle #2 plastic bottles are best. Lye can dissolve glass and damage plastics depending on concentration. i’m told to avoid pvc. The clear bluish brs handled jugs are pvc but they occasionally have HDPE jugs.

the concentration I’m working with is 75g/L or 7.5%. Max solubility is 1,000g/L so this may not be an issue... i’d just error on the safe side. It’d be awful to pick up a jug of lye and have the bottom fall out on you.

When mixing, the lye will get very hot. Its best to avoid a pile sitting in the bottom of a jug. IMO, pouring it into a jug, capping and shaking is a bad idea. A magnetic stirrer in a thick 4L HDPE is best. Pour the lye in slowly through a funnel that isn’t near the water level. Once mixed, I cap it and use a strong magnet to bring the stir bar to the cap. Then wash it off in the sink. you can splash it pretty easily if you’re careless with magnets.
 
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It has begun. The new DOS and DDR arrived today and I just spent way too many hours creating a dosing cabinet. The DOS pump I had been using for calcium chloride and soda ash had been installed above my sump here:

8868141B-FFA9-49E8-8784-5E8FBA243A50.jpeg


However as I looked at installing the new DOS next to it I realized that this was not a good location for it. It’s hard to see in the picture, but the entire pump was covered in a thick layer of salt residue. This can’t be good for it.

So I commandeered a cabinet next to my frag tank, which is next to the sump and turned it into a dosing cabinet:

1A335B0A-68BE-409D-8231-0BE2E57798F9.jpeg


I cleaned off the old DOS and installed it and the new DOS along with the two DDR’s and I made a shelf on the bottom to hold my jugs of supplements. I even went so far as to label everything because I figure with four pumps and four supplements now I’m more likely to accidentally put the wrong one in the wrong reservoir if I just rely on my memory.

Unfortunately my lye and the mixing jug for it isn’t going to be delivered
As I’m thinking about the programming I think I’m probably initially going to set the point where it switches between soda ash and lye at a pH of 8.0. This is probably a little lower than I’ll leave it in the end, but right now with soda ash my tank ranges from 7.95 to 8.15, so I don’t want to raise it to much too quickly. Additionally I am going to have guests over this weekend, which is when the pH normally drops considerably, so I’m interested to see if the lye will be able to keep it around 8.0 all weekend.

Once I get through the weekend I’ll probably slowly
As I’m thinking about the programming I think I’m probably initially going to set the point where it switches between soda ash and lye at a pH of 8.0. This is probably a little lower than I’ll leave it in the end, but right now with soda ash my tank ranges from 7.95 to 8.15, so I don’t want to raise it to much too quickly. Additionally I am going to have guests over this weekend, which is when the pH normally drops considerably, so I’m interested to see if the lye will be able to keep it around 8.0 all weekend.

Once I get through the weekend I’ll probably slowly raise it to around 8.25 or as high as I can go and still keep it stable during the times while there are extra people in the house.

raise it to around 8.25 or as high as I can go and still keep it stable during the times while there are extra people in the house.

until tomorrow, so I can’t actually start dosing the lye, but at least everything is ready for when it arrives.

 

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Brett S

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I ordered one of those to mix it in. It’s HDPE, so it should be good. It’s set to be delivered tomorrow with my lye. Although I was planning to use the cap and shake method. What don’t you like about that?
 
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Reefinmike

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I ordered one of those to mix it in. It’s HDPE, so it should be good. It’s set to be delivered tomorrow with my lye. Although I was planning to use the cap and shake method. What don’t you like about that?

Mainly don’t like how hot the bottom can get in the 5 seconds it takes to funnel in, cap and shake. Then there’s the part where you’re slinging the stuff around to mix it.

before I bought my magnetic stirrer I used a small #5 PP bucket and a fiberglass plow marker rod to mix. Not sure how aquarium pumps would hold up to the stuff.
 

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The bottle and lye arrived today and I have mixed my first batch. I went ahead and used the cap and shake method because that is what I had planned for and it was too late to get anything else for this batch. That said, I didn’t think it worked out too badly. I used gloves and eye protection and I didn’t go crazy with the shaking... more of a turning it upside down and then back upright. It definitely generated some heat, but not so much heat that I got concerned about it and it dissolved pretty quickly.

My pH has already crossed the 8.0 threshold for today, so the lye won’t get dosed until tonight, but in looking at my pH graph it looks like typically around 12:30 am it drops under 8 and gets down to a low of 7.95 before it starts climbing again in the early morning. I’m excited to see how it behaves tonight when it can start dosing the lye when the pH starts dropping.

The big test will be tomorrow night and over the weekend though when I have more people in the house. On those days it will often drop as low as 7.6 and not get above 8 all weekend.
 
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Glad to hear you didn’t melt through anything! It sounds like you’re taking an appropriate, measured approach to this. I’ve seen some very impressive numbers over the past week. Take out the weird outliers and spikes and I have my pH pinned to 8.23-8.33
 

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Brett S

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Glad to hear you didn’t melt through anything! It sounds like you’re taking an appropriate, measured approach to this. I’ve seen some very impressive numbers over the past week. Take out the weird outliers and spikes and I have my pH pinned to 8.23-8.33

That‘a great. The graphs auto scale, so when things are stable it makes small changes look big, but a pH swing of only .1 is really pretty amazing.

For me the main goal is to eliminate the big pH drops I see when there are more people in the house. But if I can bump up my pH a bit and stabilize it even more from day to day then that’s just a bonus.
 
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That‘a great. The graphs auto scale, so when things are stable it makes small changes look big, but a pH swing of only .1 is really pretty amazing.

For me the main goal is to eliminate the big pH drops I see when there are more people in the house. But if I can bump up my pH a bit and stabilize it even more from day to day then that’s just a bonus.
I’m certain you will see some sort of improvement! Toggling additives certainly gave me the most notable improvement. Here is the week I started with just a flat dose of lye as the only alkalinity additive with brakes based on my alk reading.

8933AFBE-0E96-4378-9471-B55D1EFEC8E6.jpeg
 

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