Inverts dying: How to quickly remove Copper from display tank?

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks,

My Cu levels are actually going up even with cuprisorb in reactor and poly-filter in high circulation area in sump. Surprised to find Cu at 15 PPM on today's test, up from 11 PPM yesterday. The inverts and other animals left in the DT seam to be doing fine. I just finished checking the sump and DT for any additional sources of Cu. The equipment, power cords and control cables are all intact and no stray current in the tank. I did find a metal valve on my RODI supply that is showing some green discoloration. This is not in the water and showing no flaking, but I will replace it as soon as I get a replacement this week. I also have 2 solid brass reduction connectors around a 1/2" flowmeter that is not in use. I live in a port with lots of solid brass parts for boats and these are much easier to get than plastic ones These are well out of the water and show no corrosion, but I will look to replace them. I am not sure solid brass is much of a source of Cu as these fittings are used on boats at sea for decades without much if any corrosion - any thoughts there would be helpful.
The other possible source of Cu, Fe are corroded brass wash and iron fasteners in the cabinet, many of which come from the equipment suppliers. Again these are not in direct contact with the aquarium water.

I will make some replacement and continue with the circulation though the Cu reducing/capturing media. That's all I can see as practical at this point. Again open to suggestions.

Many thanks

While the copper going up isn't totally unexpected (given the binding and release that I mentioned) the invertebrates doing well at 0.11 ppm IS unexpected! That is half of a treatment dose for ionic copper, and anything above 0.05 ppm should begin showing harm to sensitive invertebrates (snails and corals). Shrimp and crabs are a bit more resistant.

I've had issues with brass before. It also contains zinc which is even more toxic than copper is.

Has anyone asked if your copper test method could be giving erroneous results? I've heard vague reports of some people having issues with the Hanna checkers. You have the high or the low range tester? For some reason, Hanna doesn't list marine applications for the low range model, and the high range model gets really hinky when measuring low doses - I'd hate for you to be chasing a ghost here.


Jay

 

[PhilM]

While the copper going up isn't totally unexpected (given the binding and release that I mentioned) the invertebrates doing well at 0.11 ppm IS unexpected! That is half of a treatment dose for ionic copper, and anything above 0.05 ppm should begin showing harm to sensitive invertebrates (snails and corals). Shrimp and crabs are a bit more resistant.

I've had issues with brass before. It also contains zinc which is even more toxic than copper is.

Has anyone asked if your copper test method could be giving erroneous results? I've heard vague reports of some people having issues with the Hanna checkers. You have the high or the low range tester? For some reason, Hanna doesn't list marine applications for the low range model, and the high range model gets really hinky when measuring low doses - I'd hate for you to be chasing a ghost here.


Jay

I am using the Hana Hi Cu checker. Process is pretty straight forward but it is possible I should be using it differently then when I am going for 10 - 15x the concentration (~2.5 ppm) for Cu treatments in QT. The reading today was still higher at 20 ppm. The inverts left in the tank are all actively moving about and my brittle starfish actually came fully out last evening. The fish are all well. The nems are well. I have a 2 head hammer and a 4 head framer that were doing great and are now looking very unhappy. I also have a cotton candy and a green pink tip touch that were added to the tank 4 days before the incident. They were opening nicely but now are looking not so good. The other euphyllia are not at their peak but looking reasonably good. Most of the softies are looking quite good with nice polyp extension.

Do you think I am chasing ghosts? How would I tell? Could the real damage be from the electrical shock when the cable burnt off and now that all trace current is out of the water the remaining inverts can handle the remaining Cu concentration in the DT? I will continue to cycle water in the DT through the cuprisorb and poly-filter pads and hope the corals not doing well improve and no additional inverts go down.

Of the 4 snails I moved from the 1st HT to my QT (which I have now set up as a second HT), 2 are very active and 2 are clinging to the glass bottom but not moving. Going to move more from the first HT this evening. The turbos are starting to smell quite bad. The small conch has had his foot out and immobile for at least 3 days. I think these and a few others are gone. I will keep doing daily water changes on this tank for a few more days but anything with a real possibility (cling to glass and/or no smell I will move to the 2nd HT.

Always open to suggestions and questions. Philip



Any suggestions are appreciated

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am using the Hana Hi Cu checker. Process is pretty straight forward but it is possible I should be using it differently then when I am going for 10 - 15x the concentration (~2.5 ppm) for Cu treatments in QT. The reading today was still higher at 20 ppm. The inverts left in the tank are all actively moving about and my brittle starfish actually came fully out last evening. The fish are all well. The nems are well. I have a 2 head hammer and a 4 head framer that were doing great and are now looking very unhappy. I also have a cotton candy and a green pink tip touch that were added to the tank 4 days before the incident. They were opening nicely but now are looking not so good. The other euphyllia are not at their peak but looking reasonably good. Most of the softies are looking quite good with nice polyp extension.

Do you think I am chasing ghosts? How would I tell? Could the real damage be from the electrical shock when the cable burnt off and now that all trace current is out of the water the remaining inverts can handle the remaining Cu concentration in the DT? I will continue to cycle water in the DT through the cuprisorb and poly-filter pads and hope the corals not doing well improve and no additional inverts go down.

Of the 4 snails I moved from the 1st HT to my QT (which I have now set up as a second HT), 2 are very active and 2 are clinging to the glass bottom but not moving. Going to move more from the first HT this evening. The turbos are starting to smell quite bad. The small conch has had his foot out and immobile for at least 3 days. I think these and a few others are gone. I will keep doing daily water changes on this tank for a few more days but anything with a real possibility (cling to glass and/or no smell I will move to the 2nd HT.

Always open to suggestions and questions. Philip



Any suggestions are appreciated

I recall somebody with an analytical equipment background explain the Hanna copper checker in terms of its resolution (0.01 ppm) and its accuracy (+- 0.05 ppm) to explain why people might get high readings at the low end of the scale, but I still cannot see how it could be that high.

The simple test is to mix up some fresh seawater and test that - it should be zero. If it is, that confirms your tank is contaminated. If you get a reading of any copper at all, subtract that amount from the reading in your tank currently, and that should be closer to the actual copper amount.

Jay

 

[PhilM]

I recall somebody with an analytical equipment background explain the Hanna copper checker in terms of its resolution (0.01 ppm) and its accuracy (+- 0.05 ppm) to explain why people might get high readings at the low end of the scale, but I still cannot see how it could be that high.

The simple test is to mix up some fresh seawater and test that - it should be zero. If it is, that confirms your tank is contaminated. If you get a reading of any copper at all, subtract that amount from the reading in your tank currently, and that should be closer to the actual copper amount.

Jay

I have done a whole series of tests with the Hi range Cu checker. I have done them on fresh RODI water a fresh salt mix, and several tanks. Generally I was getting 0.00 readings, However a 0.04 reading on a batch of water out of the DT 2 weeks older than the Power cable burn off incident got my attention. So I retested and got a zero reading and then immediately after (with recalibration to the same water in the other curette and no wait time) got 0.06 readings. I ran a completely new test on the fresh batch of salt water and got 0.16 ppm then 0.02 and then 0.09 on the same sample (with a fresh calibration from the other curette and no wait time). I then tested the DT using the same methodology and got 0.09, 0.19, 0.14, and 0.07 is quick succession. Also my RODI water tested 0.15, 0.00, then 0.02 in a similar test. I also went to the LFS and had them go through the testing protocol with me. My protocol was good. The LFS gave me the idea of multiple readings of the same test with calibration of the water from the same tank in the other curette to see variation. I did notice that their reagent was powdery and easily came out of the little pouch where as mine seemed to have some moisture, stuck to the pouch, and was harder to get out.

At this point I have asked for help from Hanna after preliminarily concluding I cannot use this checker with this batch of reagent at these low concentrations with any degree of certainty.

What I do know is there was an electrical event that put live current in the DT and likely raised Cu rates which combined or individually killed off 3 turbos and ~ 10 other snails. I continue using the poly-filter and cuprisorb. I have also separately introduced a bumble bee and an asteria snail into the tank and they have survived nicely.

I am having trouble with my torches and branching hammers taht started with this incident. I will post that as a separate incident as it may be unrelated but may also be the result of the electric current or elevated Cu.
I appreciate all the support and help I got on this incident.
Philip

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Two Little Fishes makes a product designed to remove heavy metals from water, maybe it would be more effective? I think it's called Metasorb but not 100% sure. Also, @Randy Holmes-Farley might be able to help from a chemistry standpoint.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have done a whole series of tests with the Hi range Cu checker. I have done them on fresh RODI water a fresh salt mix, and several tanks. Generally I was getting 0.00 readings, However a 0.04 reading on a batch of water out of the DT 2 weeks older than the Power cable burn off incident got my attention. So I retested and got a zero reading and then immediately after (with recalibration to the same water in the other curette and no wait time) got 0.06 readings. I ran a completely new test on the fresh batch of salt water and got 0.16 ppm then 0.02 and then 0.09 on the same sample (with a fresh calibration from the other curette and no wait time). I then tested the DT using the same methodology and got 0.09, 0.19, 0.14, and 0.07 is quick succession. Also my RODI water tested 0.15, 0.00, then 0.02 in a similar test. I also went to the LFS and had them go through the testing protocol with me. My protocol was good. The LFS gave me the idea of multiple readings of the same test with calibration of the water from the same tank in the other curette to see variation. I did notice that their reagent was powdery and easily came out of the little pouch where as mine seemed to have some moisture, stuck to the pouch, and was harder to get out.

At this point I have asked for help from Hanna after preliminarily concluding I cannot use this checker with this batch of reagent at these low concentrations with any degree of certainty.

What I do know is there was an electrical event that put live current in the DT and likely raised Cu rates which combined or individually killed off 3 turbos and ~ 10 other snails. I continue using the poly-filter and cuprisorb. I have also separately introduced a bumble bee and an asteria snail into the tank and they have survived nicely.

I am having trouble with my torches and branching hammers taht started with this incident. I will post that as a separate incident as it may be unrelated but may also be the result of the electric current or elevated Cu.
I appreciate all the support and help I got on this incident.
Philip

Lots of data there (grin) but it sure looks like part of the issue is with the precision and accuracy of the Hanna checker. It may be bad reagents, or as I said, something with these units at the low end of their range.

There is something I call the “tyranny of numbers” - devices that spit out lots of decimal places in their numbers are always presumed to be precise, but not always are. A pH meter that read 8 is deemed less precise than one that reads 8.00 However, that doesn’t mean that the 8.00 reading isn’t actually 7.50 (grin)

Jay

 

[PhilM]

Lots of data there (grin) but it sure looks like part of the issue is with the precision and accuracy of the Hanna checker. It may be bad reagents, or as I said, something with these units at the low end of their range.

There is something I call the “tyranny of numbers” - devices that spit out lots of decimal places in their numbers are always presumed to be precise, but not skeays are. A pH meter that read 8 is deemed less precise than one that reads 8.00 However, that doesn’t mean that the 8.00 reading isn’t actually 7.50 (grin)

Jay

Agreed. We have to understand the limitations of our testing. Monitoring direction and seeing breaks in trend can be very helpful, but stressing over getting the right number can be just useless stress. Seeing the problem was the Cu and then reacting to it very important. Trying to get the numbers to behave as expected afterward; not so.

Really appreciate your input, Philip