Iron in the reefaquarium?

Belgian Anthias

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Iron in the reefaquarium?

Iron is of great importance for many metabolic processes since the redox potential between its two valence states Fe2+ and Fe3+ lies within the range of physiological processes. Actually, iron is not a rare element, it is fourth in abundance in the earth crust, but it is not readily available for microorganisms.
To increase the supply of soluble iron microorganisms may circumvent the problem by reduction of Fe3+ to Fe2+ , which seems to be of major importance for marine phytoplankton and marine bacteria An important alternative is the production of Fe3+ chelating compounds, so-called siderophores.(Herbert Budzikiewicz. “Microbial Siderophores | SpringerLink”, 17 februari 210AD. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-211-99661-4_1.)

Siderophores are small organic molecules produced by microorganisms under iron-limiting conditions which enhance the uptake of iron to the microorganisms. In environment, the ferric form of iron is insoluble and inaccessible at physiological pH (7.35–7.40). Under this condition, microorganisms synthesize siderophores which have high affinity for ferric iron. These ferric iron-siderophore complexes are then transported to cytosol. In cytosol, the ferric iron gets reduced into ferrous iron and becomes accessible to microorganism. In recent times, siderophores have drawn much attention due to its potential roles in different fields. Siderophores have application in microbial ecology to enhance the growth of several unculturable microorganisms and can alter the microbial communities.
(MaumitaEnCo2016) Saha, Maumita, Subhasis Sarkar, Biplab Sarkar, Bipin Kumar Sharma, Surajit Bhattacharjee, en Prosun Tribedi. “Microbial Siderophores and Their Potential Applications: A Review”. Environmental Science and Pollution Research 23, nr. 5 (1 maart 2016): 3984–99. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11356-015-4294-0.)

The production and use of Siderophores may play an important role on general health of organisms and all life in the closed environment of a reef aquarium. As Siderophores are produced in iron limiting conditions I assume Fe2+ferrous iron is meant and not Fe3+ ferric iron

Iron availability is very important for all microbial processes and photosynthesis .
What commercial available iron supplement is best for providing iron without interfering to much with the iron balance taking in consideration natural Siderophore production .

Is there an ideal Fe3+/Fe2+ proportion for a marine reefaquarium?

Is the addition of Fe2+ necessary as it may be provided by Fe3+ and the production of Siderophores. May the addition of Fe2+ provoke problems if it becomes unlimited available?

Is the used salt mix important for the Fe3+/Fe2+ ratio and may the saltmix influence general health this way?
 
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Belgian Anthias

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The use of a chelated form of iron instead of ferric iron seems to matter. The pH within the organismn is to high for usable iron to be formed from ferric iron. So, it does not matter how much ferric iron is present? Or does it? As shown organisms are able to transform ferric iron into ferous iron when neccasery by producing molecules helping in the transport and transformation of iron into usable iron. These so called siderophores seem to have an effect on the general condition of live forms and pathogenes in a way they are made usefull for battling pests and deseases. When to much iron is present in a chelated form there is no need for the production of siderophore. I think the form of iron added to an aqurium does matter, more as one may think. Must one supplement iron if regular waterchanges are conducted? Does the form of iron in the salt mixture matters?
If iron is added it seems to me it is better to use ferric iron and leave the rest to nature.
 
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It is generally advised in marine aquarium literature to use ferous iron bound to an organic molecule and not to use products for fresh water containing ferric iron. I do not follow that advice.
My opinion ferric iron can be used safely with minimal or no risk for overdosing. This can not be said when chelated iron is used.
If usable iron availability is not limited, maybe organisms forget how to make siderphores wich may cause sudden problems when for some reason they must make use of them. An other reason may be the lack of siderophore activity in a closed environement, the influence on deseases etc..
Food generally contains enough iron.
A standard F2 medium, used for decades, (food supplement for micro-organisms) contains +- 3.15 ppm FeCl3·6H2O. (+- 20% iron) These supplement are generally used for the cultivation of live food. Can be safely used without preventing the production of siderophores.
 
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Belgian Anthias

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It is generally advised in marine aquarium literature to use ferous iron bound to an organic molecule and not to use products for fresh water containing ferric iron. I do not follow that advice.
My opinion ferric iron can be used safely with minimal or no risk for overdosing. This can not be said when chelated iron is used.
If usable iron availability is not limited, maybe organisms forget how to make siderphores wich may cause sudden problems when for some reason they must make use of them. An other reason may be the lack of siderophore activity in a closed environement, the influence on deseases etc..
Food generally contains enough iron.
A standard F2 medium, used for decades, (food supplement for micro-organisms) contains +- 3.15 ppm FeCl3·6H2O. (+- 20% iron) These supplement are generally used for the cultivation of live food. Can be safely used without preventing the production of siderophores.
 

Dan_P

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Iron in the reefaquarium?

Iron is of great importance for many metabolic processes since the redox potential between its two valence states Fe2+ and Fe3+ lies within the range of physiological processes. Actually, iron is not a rare element, it is fourth in abundance in the earth crust, but it is not readily available for microorganisms.
To increase the supply of soluble iron microorganisms may circumvent the problem by reduction of Fe3+ to Fe2+ , which seems to be of major importance for marine phytoplankton and marine bacteria An important alternative is the production of Fe3+ chelating compounds, so-called siderophores.(Herbert Budzikiewicz. “Microbial Siderophores | SpringerLink”, 17 februari 210AD. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-211-99661-4_1.)

Siderophores are small organic molecules produced by microorganisms under iron-limiting conditions which enhance the uptake of iron to the microorganisms. In environment, the ferric form of iron is insoluble and inaccessible at physiological pH (7.35–7.40). Under this condition, microorganisms synthesize siderophores which have high affinity for ferric iron. These ferric iron-siderophore complexes are then transported to cytosol. In cytosol, the ferric iron gets reduced into ferrous iron and becomes accessible to microorganism. In recent times, siderophores have drawn much attention due to its potential roles in different fields. Siderophores have application in microbial ecology to enhance the growth of several unculturable microorganisms and can alter the microbial communities.
(MaumitaEnCo2016) Saha, Maumita, Subhasis Sarkar, Biplab Sarkar, Bipin Kumar Sharma, Surajit Bhattacharjee, en Prosun Tribedi. “Microbial Siderophores and Their Potential Applications: A Review”. Environmental Science and Pollution Research 23, nr. 5 (1 maart 2016): 3984–99. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11356-015-4294-0.)

The production and use of Siderophores may play an important role on general health of organisms and all life in the closed environment of a reef aquarium. As Siderophores are produced in iron limiting conditions I assume Fe2+ferrous iron is meant and not Fe3+ ferric iron

Iron availability is very important for all microbial processes and photosynthesis .
What commercial available iron supplement is best for providing iron without interfering to much with the iron balance taking in consideration natural Siderophore production .

Is there an ideal Fe3+/Fe2+ proportion for a marine reefaquarium?

Is the addition of Fe2+ necessary as it may be provided by Fe3+ and the production of Siderophores. May the addition of Fe2+ provoke problems if it becomes unlimited available?

Is the used salt mix important for the Fe3+/Fe2+ ratio and may the saltmix influence general health this way?

Are you asking about the iron requirement for macro alga? The iron needed for a “refugium” is a little too broad to answer.
 
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Belgian Anthias

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Cultuvating macro algae or keeping macro algae in refugia are two differnet things and need a different approach.
The influence of iron on the formation of spores in caulerpa is an other discussion but also here the form in which iron is provided may influence growth and reproduction.
It is logic if direct usable ferous iron is provided the growth rate is increased if all other buildingmaterials are present as less energy is needed. For the cultivation of algae we do not have to bother about all other lifeforms, If algae are grown in a refuge connected to the main system this needs a different approach for the reason I have mentioned.
Stimulating growth for the removal of nitrogen and phosphor out of the watercolumn may be done by providing a modified F2 medium, not containing nitrogen and or phosphor. This method can be used for any nutrient wich one wants to remove including iron. I prefere this method but to be effective in high nutrient systems a big refuge is needed. This has the advantage supplements can be added to the refuge in accordance with the suspected or and the target growth rate. The supplementation can be matched with the needs and removal rate by comparing with the harvested algae content. To replace a simple BADES bio-filter for nitrogen removal one must harvest a lot, for phosphor removal it is my prefered method. Although I will not use Caulerpa.

Tap water contains iron, and a lot. Mine has 0.2 ppm. If tapwater is used from time to time to replace evaporation iron is added.
Supplying ferous iron may prevent ferric iron to be used.

I prefere to leave the Fe2+/Fe3+ ratio to nature by not adding any chelated ferous iron supplements to my live support system.
 

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It is generally advised in marine aquarium literature to use ferous iron bound to an organic molecule and not to use products for fresh water containing ferric iron. I do not follow that advice.
My opinion ferric iron can be used safely with minimal or no risk for overdosing. This can not be said when chelated iron is used.
If usable iron availability is not limited, maybe organisms forget how to make siderphores wich may cause sudden problems when for some reason they must make use of them. An other reason may be the lack of siderophore activity in a closed environement, the influence on deseases etc..
Food generally contains enough iron.
A standard F2 medium, used for decades, (food supplement for micro-organisms) contains +- 3.15 ppm FeCl3·6H2O. (+- 20% iron) These supplement are generally used for the cultivation of live food. Can be safely used without preventing the production of siderophores.

Are you talking about this product? Contains Silica also Na2SiO3 9H2O
1568548710008.png
1568548710008.png
https://ncma.bigelow.org/pmf21l#.XX4m_5NKjAw
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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The easiest diy for many are Fergon tablets from a drug store. It is ferrous gluconate and the other ingredients are not harmful. Search on Fergon at REEF2REEF and you find tons of threads.
 

ramona

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The easiest diy for many are Fergon tablets from a drug store. It is ferrous gluconate and the other ingredients are not harmful. Search on Fergon at REEF2REEF and you find tons of threads.
Thank you Randy, It's funny because I was just looking at my CVS store for the Fergon tablets a few minutes ago, before reading your reply, they do carry. Now I have to find the details how to use it.
 
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Belgian Anthias

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Are you talking about this product? Contains Silica also Na2SiO3 9H2O
1568548710008.png
1568548710008.png
https://ncma.bigelow.org/pmf21l#.XX4m_5NKjAw
This is Guillard F2. Such solutions are available in different modified formula. Without nitrogen or and phosphorus content to lower the content of these nutrients. Also without silica.
Silica is an essential building material in a closed system!
Guillard2 is used to cultivate diatoms and others needing silica. A modified F2 medium is F/2-Si Medium. Many other modified formulations and derived from the standard Zarrouk's medium are available, modified for growing the target specimen. These formulations contain all essentials for growth and may be modified for those nutrients not limited available. Adding modified F2 for iron addition does also provide other essential building materials. This limits the risk the iron can not be used because one ore more other essential building materials are insufficiently available. As modified F2 medium does not only provide iron, growing algae will not deplete essential building material availability. When modified for phosphorus, only phosphorus needs to be retrieved from the water column for growth.
For the reason mentioned above, the way iron is provided may matter on the long term, it is not desirable that the cure becomes worse than the disease.
 

ramona

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If you don’t find some directions, just pop back. :)

I found it: Put one pill in about 25 mL fresh water/RODI (volume is not that important since dose is not that important for iron). Let it soak for a while or overnight until the tablet breaks apart.

Swirl it to mix. Let is settle overnight. Then use the clear greenish liquid. Dose about 1 mL per 100 gallons once a week (dose is not critical).
 

ramona

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This is Guillard F2. Such solutions are available in different modified formula. Without nitrogen or and phosphorus content to lower the content of these nutrients. Also without silica.
Silica is an essential building material in a closed system!
Guillard2 is used to cultivate diatoms and others needing silica. A modified F2 medium is F/2-Si Medium. Many other modified formulations and derived from the standard Zarrouk's medium are available, modified for growing the target specimen. These formulations contain all essentials for growth and may be modified for those nutrients not limited available. Adding modified F2 for iron addition does also provide other essential building materials. This limits the risk the iron can not be used because one ore more other essential building materials are insufficiently available. As modified F2 medium does not only provide iron, growing algae will not deplete essential building material availability. When modified for phosphorus, only phosphorus needs to be retrieved from the water column for growth.
For the reason mentioned above, the way iron is provided may matter on the long term, it is not desirable that the cure becomes worse than the disease.

This product: Fritz PRO - F/2 Algae Food PTA - 16oz has: ferric chloride, EDTA, cobalt chloride, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, manganese chloride and sodium molibdate; doesn't have the vitamines (B1, B12 and biotin). Is this what you are talking about?
1568758927113.png
1568758975064.png
 

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