Is anyone else just... failing?

[g5flier]

I don't know if it's ever been suggested to you, but I "inoculated" my tank (set up with Pukani like yours) two separate times with Garf Grunge. It turned the tank around. I think it added a (I know it did actually) a ton of biodiversity the pukani was lacking. Just a suggestion worth looking into!

Tell us more about this GARF GRUNGE stuff please! Is it worth putting some in the refugium sump instead of in the tank? What has your general experience been using it? Thanks!

 

[Brew12]

Tell us more about this GARF GRUNGE stuff please! Is it worth putting some in the refugium sump instead of in the tank? What has your general experience been using it? Thanks!

Garf Grunge is basically uncleaned gravel from a dirty, nasty stump. It used to be great stuff full of micro and macroscopic life. When Leroy passed away (the guy who sold Garf Grunge) his family let the business lapse. They restarted things not all too many years ago and are selling it again. From what I have heard they had a rough restart and some disappointed customers but it does sound like they have improved as they have continued.

They have even come out with Grunge + or something like that which is small rock rubble instead of gravel. Its supposed to hold more of the larger life than the rubble.

 

[g5flier]

Garf Grunge is basically uncleaned gravel from a dirty, nasty stump. It used to be great stuff full of micro and macroscopic life. When Leroy passed away (the guy who sold Garf Grunge) his family let the business lapse. They restarted things not all too many years ago and are selling it again. From what I have heard they had a rough restart and some disappointed customers but it does sound like they have improved as they have continued.

They have even come out with Grunge + or something like that which is small rock rubble instead of gravel. Its supposed to hold more of the larger life than the rubble.

Thanks! Thinking about this or some Fuji mud. My tank could use a little pick me up!

 

[XNavyDiver]

Tell us more about this GARF GRUNGE stuff please! Is it worth putting some in the refugium sump instead of in the tank? What has your general experience been using it? Thanks!

Here is a link to GARF; http://www.garf.org/!paypal2010/Store.html
I've used their grunge twice, about 3 months apart. Both times it went into the sump. They take it from their very old established tanks, it's course rubble for the most part. It's full of all those things that dry rock tanks lack, micro fauna like bacteria, copepods, brittle stars, and some bristle worms (if bristle worms freak you out, dump the grunge into a bucket with saltwater and pick out the worms with a tweezer). It even had some rubble with some orange palys that have since established themselves in the sump. It's basically like adding old cured live rock in the form of rubble to your system. It gives young tanks with dry rock a "maturity" inoculation.

 

[Cae]

I'm doing the cycle in the dark, so coralline algae added during that stage would probably just die off. Although adding a bit probably wouldn't hurt; there might be spores that would survive and lodge in the rocks.

I plan to add it to the new tank the day after I add the cycled rocks, assuming I'm happy enough with water quality, flow and lighting. And I'll add more a few days later, and so on. Fortunately my sump needs a good cleanout so perfect timing, two birds, etc. :)

Thanks for the insight. Hope all goes well with it all.

 

[Jr'sReef]

I once had someone tell me that a saltwater tank is like a wave in the middle of a storm in the ocean. At the beginning, it's going to be a mess, and slowly but surely the storm will pass and your tank will start to settle down such as the waves do after a storm. (It takes days for the waves to calm down after a storm and those days are considered years for a saltwater tank) and just when it's all settled out, just when it seems like it's the nicest day in the world another storm hits, it may be a small storm or a hurricane that wipes out your tank but the ocean bounces back and so should we.
Thought that was one of the most accurate things I've heard when comparing the saltwater aquarist.

 

[ajm83]

I would suggesting looking up Sanjay Yoshi and Mike from American reefing had a similar struggle. If you don't know either of their names then look them up also, as they have basically been founders of the hobby. They both, on completely separate systems, were unable to grow SPS until they had at least 50% live rock. They both started new tanks and used 100% dry rock and couldn't keep any SPS. I tried looking up the article, but couldn't find it tonight. I know it's also mentioned in one of their youtube videos on Mike's 90 gallon build.

Or, devil's advocate: they have a problem they don't understand and dry rock makes for a convenient fall guy.

 

[ThunderGoose]

I have no suggestions but I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one whose first year didn't go...quite.... like what I expected based on forum posts. I suspect the less successful folks don't post as much. I know I don't.

I'm starting to see an improvement but my coral is still very slow growing, many have low PE and Less saturated colors. I had the owner of my LFS come by and give my tank a "tune up" at one year. We changed the lighting a bit and started feeding more and cleaning less, plus we set up a refugium. I think it's helping but it's still slow going. Check back in a few months and see if I've managed to keep my hands out of the tank and have finally started to see growth or not.

 

[Potatohead]

Or, devil's advocate: they have a problem they don't understand and dry rock makes for a convenient fall guy.

What tipped Mike off about the problem was speaking to many of his friends about it (keep in mind, these are the people that pioneered the hobby) and found that in Europe a lot of people had the same complaint. So, while nobody has any conclusive, scientific evidence (does any of that actually exist in this hobby about anything?) there is a very strong theory towards it. Personally as I said earlier, I am virtually convinced at this point. There are hundreds of examples of it.

 

[g5flier]

Or, devil's advocate: they have a problem they don't understand and dry rock makes for a convenient fall guy.

The article is right here. https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/

 

[ajm83]

The article is right here. https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/

Again, i made that comment as devils advocate. I don't know either way and neither do they. It is just an interesting hypothesis until we see some real evidence.

Regarding the article, he used dead rock, yes but also unfamiliar equipment and salt.

As an aside, just because Triton says a parameter is okay, doesnt mean it's a sensible way to run a tank. Triton gives me a green light for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate for example.

Btw my own tank is dead rock only (lifereef), dead sand, no live anything yet I kept acros successfully after 3 or 4 months and I am not an experienced reefer.

Previously I failed despite using live rock.

 

[Oldreefer44]

Been in the hobby for close to 40 years and can tell you that I still have things go wrong with no logical reason behind it. Just like in their natural habitat, living organisms fluctuate between good and bad and many die in the process. I feel that the most important quality in a good reefer is patience and consistency. I think that too many of us rush to try out the latest and greatest when just leaving things alone would be most beneficial to the inhabitants of our tanks.

 

[g5flier]

Again, i made that comment as devils advocate. I don't know either way and neither do they. It is just an interesting hypothesis until we see some real evidence.

Regarding the article, he used dead rock, yes but also unfamiliar equipment and salt.

As an aside, just because Triton says a parameter is okay, doesnt mean it's a sensible way to run a tank. Triton gives me a green light for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate for example.

Btw my own tank is dead rock only (lifereef), dead sand, no live anything yet I kept acros successfully after 3 or 4 months and I am not an experienced reefer.

Previously I failed despite using live rock.

Once he added LIVE ROCK his system turned around, same lights same salt. He is a well known and respected icon in this hobby so I think this one is dead. Personally I'd never even consider putting anything but live rock in a new tank, if that's not for everyone that's fine but the evidence is pretty clear.

 

[ajm83]

Once he added LIVE ROCK his system turned around, same lights same salt. He is a well known and respected icon in this hobby so I think this one is dead. Personally I'd never even consider putting anything but live rock in a new tank, if that's not for everyone that's fine but the evidence is pretty clear.

I don't think you can't reliably draw that conclusion from those events. He changed numerous things in the tank in the months before it started working. So it could have been any of those. He also left the tank alone after adding the live rock. So it could have been due to the stability improving.

If he set up two tanks, identical aside from dead rock in one, live rock in the other, and the LR thrived and the DR one didn't, then yes that would start to make a strong case for the hypothesis being true. But he didn't, so you can't.

 

[g5flier]

I don't think you can't reliably draw that conclusion from those events. He changed numerous things in the tank in the months before it started working. So it could have been any of those. He also left the tank alone after adding the live rock. So it could have been due to the stability improving.

If he set up two tanks, identical aside from dead rock in one, live rock in the other, and the LR thrived and the DR one didn't, then yes that would start to make a strong case for the hypothesis being true. But he didn't, so you can't.

"I can't"?

 

[ajm83]

"I can't"?

Well of course you can draw whatever conclusion you like, but anyone who values data as opposed to guesswork would discount it.

Edit: you as in 'somebody', not you personally

 

[Potatohead]

I don't think you can't reliably draw that conclusion from those events. He changed numerous things in the tank in the months before it started working. So it could have been any of those. He also left the tank alone after adding the live rock. So it could have been due to the stability improving.

If he set up two tanks, identical aside from dead rock in one, live rock in the other, and the LR thrived and the DR one didn't, then yes that would start to make a strong case for the hypothesis being true. But he didn't, so you can't.

I would be inclined to agree with you if it wasn't Mike Paletta doing it.

 

[g5flier]

I would be inclined to agree with you if it wasn't Mike Paletta doing it.

Exactly...nuff said.

 

[ajm83]

Exactly...nuff said.

No, not 'nuff said'. It's nothing to do with who said it, quite simply you can't change various things in rapid succession then later lay the blame on one thing with any certainty. He even says in the article that he went against his own advice and 'constantly changed things', then the tank starts working at some point later when he is forced to stop tinkering and let it stabilise. Who knows at what point the problem was actually fixed?

Coming back to Mike though, here's a great quote from him I read recently:

...unfortunately an all to common reason why we lose corals for no reason is that we get arrogant. We stop quarantining, acclimating, testing, keeping track of things or any of the other tasks that we did when we were getting the tank up to speed but that stopped being “fun” to do. Or in our arrogance we stop learning or asking for help when things go awry or we think our tanks are too successful to fail. Knowing as many great hobbyists as I do , I am fairly confident in saying that almost all of them have failed or lost corals for some “unknown” reason and most would say it was because they got too full of themselves and the success they were having. Needless to say this is the hardest “unknown” reason our corals died to find, as it entails us looking in the mirror.

 

[Tautog]

Interesting thread........maybe can I ask......How big is your DEAD CORAL/FRAG Bucket???
My bucket is over a gallon.
Jmo, but no matter how much you research, most articles end with “ Keep It Simple Stupid! “
I did just that, and have saved money without all the gadgets.....until now 3 yrs in. I’ve done everything manually, a very big learning lesson, which I believe everyone who is successful has done. My tank has taken its best turn for success after 2- part stability, ATI 8-bulb, and changing my feeding habits, less more often! Before all my success, I worried about Nitrates, Ph, WC’s, and what’s next. After not giving in or up, I was ready to stop, think twice, and go back to basics......Chase Alkalinity!!! Feed Less, More Often!
I was starving my corals to death. I couldn’t grow anything in the refuge.
Now, everything’s good. My 3 cents....building up the bio-load is key, high nitrates aren’t all bad.