Is Formic Acid causing fish blindness in reef tanks?

[NewReefer42]

Welcome to R2R! You would be a much better person to talk these things over with Stevo. I"m not a chemist, so talk of aldihides and formics and acids just make me dizzy. Please, continue the discussion.... Stevo is trying to find a reason for the several instances we have come across on the boards where fish went blind. There was one instance where there wasn't any known reason for it.

I don't know a lot about fish yet, but I do know that methanol is toxic to humans and can make humans go blind fairly easily, his is one of the reasons moonshining is illegal, it's actually quite dangerous. I would expect that fish are just as susceptible to it as we are, seeing as we have the same eyes. however, the amount of methanol/formaldehyde they're exposed to before symptoms appear may be a lot less than the human values, bc of species variation.

 

[NewReefer42]

Yes, sorry my bad there. I meant in the end it converts into formic acid. The Formic acid causes blindness. See original post I made.

aaaahhh ok I see now. the phenomenon to which you're referring is fish blindness, with the hypothesis that it is caused by formic acid. I follow now. absolutely this is possible. if you buy low quality vodka, as I'm sure most reefers would, given its use, it can have varying levels of methanol as a contamination, which may or may not be below the legal limit. even if it is below the limit, if you use too much, it can absolutely add more methanol to the tank than the fish can handle, and cause blindness. easy to prove, if you want to be a jerk to your fish (please don't prove this anyone reading). this is perfectly reasonable. triple distilled vodka, lower dosages, higher system volumes can prevent this from being an issue (triple distillation removes like 99.9% of methanol, hence price and taste difference).

 

[stevo01]

@NewReefer42 , is there a way to test for formic acid in the tanks water, or in the blind fish? Is it correct that formic acid is expelled through urine? Would putting the blind fish in a small QT, with an airstone, and no filtration produce a measurable level of Formic acid to test?

 

[stevo01]

aaaahhh ok I see now. the phenomenon to which you're referring is fish blindness, with the hypothesis that it is caused by formic acid. I follow now. absolutely this is possible. if you buy low quality vodka, as I'm sure most reefers would, given its use, it can have varying levels of methanol as a contamination, which may or may not be below the legal limit. even if it is below the limit, if you use too much, it can absolutely add more methanol to the tank than the fish can handle, and cause blindness. easy to prove, if you want to be a jerk to your fish (please don't prove this anyone reading). this is perfectly reasonable. triple distilled vodka, lower dosages, higher system volumes can prevent this from being an issue (triple distillation removes like 99.9% of methanol, hence price and taste difference).

We have fish that are suffering from blindness on R2R right now! Is there any connection to vinegar, as vinegar also carries connections to aldehydes? Suggested high levels of vinegar. @twilliard

 

[NewReefer42]

@NewReefer42 , is there a way to test for formic acid in the tanks water, or in the blind fish? Is it correct that formic acid is expelled through urine? Would putting the blind fish in a small QT, with an airstone, and no filtration produce a measurable level of Formic acid to test?

there may be an acid base titration that can be done, but it likely won't be detectable at such small levels in the water. I would suspect that the formic is expelled through urine as it is with mammals, but I'm not really sure about that. iirc, the problem with methanol in fish/mammals is that the methanol gets converted to formaldehyde, which binds to the proteins in the eyes/liver, BEFORE it gets converted into formic acid and excreted. therefore, the amount excreted wouldn't really matter, bc you wouldn't be able to know how much formaldehyde was absorbed into the fish without sacrificing it and blending up the liver. the way it is tested in lab is with a high level piece of analytical equipment called an IC (ion chromatograph, similar to an HPLC). I don't have access to one of those. IC I'd also the way to test for nitrates, nitrites, phosphates, ammonium, etc.

 

[stevo01]

there may be an acid base titration that can be done, but it likely won't be detectable at such small levels in the water. I would suspect that the formic is expelled through urine as it is with mammals, but I'm not really sure about that. iirc, the problem with methanol in fish/mammals is that the methanol gets converted to formaldehyde, which binds to the proteins in the eyes/liver, BEFORE it gets converted into formic acid and excreted. therefore, the amount excreted wouldn't really matter, bc you wouldn't be able to know how much formaldehyde was absorbed into the fish without sacrificing it and blending up the liver. the way it is tested in lab is with a high level piece of analytical equipment called an IC (ion chromatograph, similar to an HPLC). I don't have access to one of those. IC I'd also the way to test for nitrates, nitrites, phosphates, ammonium, etc.

Could a member euthanize a blind fish, freeze it, and send it to you?

 

[NewReefer42]

Could a member euthanize a blind fish, freeze it, and send it to you?

lol, no, sorry, I don't like to do squishy work, I'm an analytical chemist, all my stuff is done in analytical glassware, and not/never alive. I do test my and my LFS tank water via ICPMS however. I also do pH and compare my probe to my labs probe, and my labs DI water to mine (all were same).

 

[stevo01]

lol, no, sorry, I don't like to do squishy work, I'm an analytical chemist, all my stuff is done in analytical glassware, and not/never alive. I do test my and my LFS tank water via ICPMS however. I also do pH and compare my probe to my labs probe, and my labs DI water to mine (all were same).

Would you be able to work with a ground up liver sample in a test tube?

 

[stevo01]

Thats only if someone is dosing vodka, formalin, or vinegar, has a blind fish, euthanizes/prepares a sample, and ships.

 

[NewReefer42]

Would you be able to work with a ground up liver sample in a test tube?

well we don't have an IC in my lab anyway. unfortunately getting a method for testing up an running isn't a 1 day job. in fact, method development is my title, it takes about 6 months of 40 hrs a week to get a method up and running.

 

[stevo01]

well we don't have an IC in my lab anyway. unfortunately getting a method for testing up an running isn't a 1 day job. in fact, method development is my title, it takes about 6 months of 40 hrs a week to get a method up and running.

Wow!

 

[Paul B]

Stevo, fish blindness is fairly common but I never personally heard of it coming from formic acid. I thought only ants made that but what do I know. Most Fish blindness in reef tanks comes from too much bright lights. This is very common in squirrel fish, lionfish, puffers, porcupine fish and any fish with large eyes or a fish that normally spends it's time in caves. Many tanks don't have enough shady places for those types of fish and they go blind as you know, they can't close their eyes. If you SCUBA dive you will see that many fish spend the daylight hours under overhangs. We light our tanks for the corals but many fish do not thank us for that.
That type of blindness can easily be cured by keeping the fish in a dimly lit tank as I have cured quite a few of them.
If it is true that formic acid can cause blindness, then thank you for teaching me something I didn't know.

 

[becks]

Would that means the same concerns for redsea nopox?

Paul Bs answer sound on the money too :)

 

[Humblefish]

Just to bump this thread back up .....

Back in the day, many wholesalers and even Public Aquarium QT systems utilized copper + formalin (in conjunction). That combo was considered pretty all-encompassing for treating external parasites & worms. Or at least to keep pathogen populations in check before moving the fish on to a LFS. ;)

Personally, I've never liked formalin for two reasons:

1. I've witnessed too many fish have a negative reaction to it. And IME, it's not a species thing but more of an individual thing. So, it's hard to predict which fish you can safely use formalin on.
2. Formalin contains formaldehyde, a known carcinogen.

We can argue all day long that exposure to formalin causes blindness, cancer or decreased life expectancy in fish. But to my knowledge, no proper studies have ever been done on the subject... only anecdotal evidence exists. Someone would need to do a controller study to begin to unravel this mystery. o_O

 

[stevo01]

Just to bump this thread back up .....

Back in the day, many wholesalers and even Public Aquarium QT systems utilized copper + formalin (in conjunction). That combo was considered pretty all-encompassing for treating external parasites & worms. Or at least to keep pathogen populations in check before moving the fish on to a LFS. ;)

Personally, I've never liked formalin for two reasons:

1. I've witnessed too many fish have a negative reaction to it. And IME, it's not a species thing but more of an individual thing. So, it's hard to predict which fish you can safely use formalin on.
2. Formalin contains formaldehyde, a known carcinogen.

We can argue all day long that exposure to formalin causes blindness, cancer or decreased life expectancy in fish. But to my knowledge, no proper studies have ever been done on the subject... only anecdotal evidence exists. Someone would need to do a controller study to begin to unravel this mystery. o_O

Indeed!