Is Formic Acid causing fish blindness in reef tanks?

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

Ive been thinking a lot about members reporting sudden blindness in fish recently. My gut feeling is that its caused from something we are dosing to our tanks, and not disease or parasitic related. Perhaps dosing in excess?

So I need experts to help explain. #reefsquad @Randy Holmes-Farley @Humblefish @melypr1985 @JimWelsh

These are the compounds im questioning. So my thought is based on what moonshiners would call as the "foreshot". This consists of methanol, acetate, and aldehydes. Once methanol is inside our body its converted into formaldehyde, and then into formic acid. So just wondering if their is any validity in this when dosing some types of Vodkas. Well, lets skip dosing vodka. Now we are dosing Formalin which has CH2O, and will still convert into CH2O2. Also are we dosing too much Vodka and Formalin?

"The concentrated acid is corrosive to the skin. Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, it has specific toxic effects; the formic acid and formaldehyde produced as metabolites of methanol are responsible for the optic nerve damage, causing blindness seen in methanol poisoning."

Methanol in alcohol
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11926610

Methanol CH3OH
Formaldehyde CH2O
Formic acid CH2O2

Thanks!

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

@Brew12 @twilliard ;)

twilliard · Dec 11, 2016

I read this and the one thing I can add is that I have never dosed anything besides h2o2 and vinegar
Yes one of my fish has sudden blindness out of nowhere.

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

twilliard said:
I read this and the one thing I can add is that I have never dosed anything besides h2o2 and vinegar

Have you ever had a fish go blind? Not counting any cataract related blindness.

Brew12 · Dec 11, 2016

stevo01 said:
Ive been thinking a lot about members reporting sudden blindness in fish recently. My gut feeling is that its caused from something we are dosing to our tanks, and not disease or parasitic related. Perhaps dosing in excess?

So I need experts to help explain. #reefsquad @Randy Holmes-Farley @Humblefish @melypr1985 @JimWelsh

These are the compounds im questioning. So my thought is based on what moonshiners would call as the "foreshot". This consists of methanol, acetate, and aldehydes. Once methanol is inside our body its converted into formaldehyde, and then into formic acid. So just wondering if their is any validity in this when dosing some types of Vodkas. Well, lets skip dosing vodka. Now we are dosing Formalin which has CH2O, and will still convert into CH2O2. Also are we dosing too much Vodka and Formalin?

"The concentrated acid is corrosive to the skin. Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, it has specific toxic effects; the formic acid and formaldehyde produced as metabolites of methanol are responsible for the optic nerve damage, causing blindness seen in methanol poisoning."

Methanol in alcohol
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11926610

Methanol CH3OH
Formaldehyde CH2O
Formic acid CH2O2

Thanks!

Fantastic question, following along on this one!

twilliard · Dec 11, 2016

stevo01 said:
Have you ever had a fish go blind? Not counting any cataract related blindness.

No this is the first instance of this phenomenon. I digging into this now as this happened after noticing my 1/2 gallon accidental vinegar addition.

Humblefish · Dec 11, 2016

I'm not sure if this has any validity, but maybe it's safer to dose vinegar instead of vodka for lowering nitrates? o_O

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

Is their a titration test available for CH2O2?

Brew12 · Dec 11, 2016

stevo01 said:
Is their a titration test available for CH2O2?

I know you can test for airborne CH2O2, not sure about if it is in water. :confused:

twilliard · Dec 11, 2016

https://secure.megazyme.com/Formic-Acid-Assay-Kit
This may be an interesting item to add to my lab :)

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

Humblefish said:
I'm not sure if this has any validity, but maybe it's safer to dose vinegar instead of vodka for lowering nitrates? o_O

Wondering if there is a connection to overdosing vinegar and blindness too. Im running through compounds in vinegar and trying to link them to CH2O2, or a similar compound that can also have these effects. Im no chemist so this is really tough for me.

NewReefer42 · Dec 11, 2016

stevo01 said:
Wondering if there is a connection to overdosing vinegar and blindness too. Im running through compounds in vinegar and trying to link them to CH2O2, or a similar compound that can also have these effects. Im no chemist so this is really tough for me.

I'm a chemist, I don't understand why would anyone dose formalin. there is essentially no formic in vodka, it's toxic to humans.

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

NewReefer42 said:
I'm a chemist, I don't understand why would anyone dose formalin. there is essentially no formic in vodka, it's toxic to humans.

Formalin is used in treating for parasites and fungal diseases in FW and SW tanks.
https://www.petsolutions.com/C/External-Parasite-Ich-Fish-Medications/I/Formalin-MS.aspx

As the vodka goes, im questioning brands that have higher levels of methanol. Vodka manufactures allow for methanol as to increase measurable alchohol content while saving money. Methanol absorbed into the body converts making (Formic acid* edit). Im guessing that the levels are safe for humans but not for marine life.

Im just trying to form a hypothesis for this phenomenon. At the least get the wheels spinning in here for the experts to examine.

NewReefer42 · Dec 11, 2016

sorry man I'm still not following. what phenomenon are you referring to? also, just to clarify the language a bit, in the body methanol is converted to formaldehyde (aka formalin, aka methanal) and in turn, formaldehyde is converted to formic acid (aka methanoic acid).

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

NewReefer42 said:
I'm a chemist, I don't understand why would anyone dose formalin. there is essentially no formic in vodka, it's toxic to humans.

Thanks! Did you join today to help with this topic? If so, Thats pretty awesome!

NewReefer42 · Dec 11, 2016

lol, actually yea, normally I just lurk. :)

Brew12 · Dec 11, 2016

NewReefer42 said:
lol, actually yea, normally I just lurk. :)

Well, not to hijack the thread, but Welcome! Glad to have you aboard!

NewReefer42 · Dec 11, 2016

thanks. before this hobby, it was rare to use my chem degrees outside of work (analytical chemist). nice to talk shop in a more relaxed environment. if y'all want to discuss chemistry in the future, feel free to post or pm me.

melypr1985 · Dec 11, 2016

NewReefer42 said:
thanks. before this hobby, it was rare to use my chem degrees outside of work (analytical chemist). nice to talk shop in a more relaxed environment. if y'all want to discuss chemistry in the future, feel free to post or pm me.

Welcome to R2R! You would be a much better person to talk these things over with Stevo. I"m not a chemist, so talk of aldihides and formics and acids just make me dizzy. Please, continue the discussion.... Stevo is trying to find a reason for the several instances we have come across on the boards where fish went blind. There was one instance where there wasn't any known reason for it.

stevo01 · Dec 11, 2016

NewReefer42 said:
sorry man I'm still not following. what phenomenon are you referring to? also, just to clarify the language a bit, in the body methanol is converted to formaldehyde (aka formalin, aka methanal) and in turn, formaldehyde is converted to formic acid (aka methanoic acid).

Yes, sorry my bad there. I meant in the end it converts into formic acid. The Formic acid causes blindness. See original post I made.