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Is it possible to raise PH too fast?

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GK3

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No, I dont NEED to test my alk and wont, I reject your demands. To me testing 4 things and adding chemicals is not more simple than experimenting with adding an air stone.


Let me be more clear. I run an extremely simple system. No ATO, no skimmer, no powerhead, no dosing anything, no testing, just large religious water changes and it works well for almost 2 years. I have had one mini crash in which nothing died because I experimented with not doing a water change for 2 months then did a big one (rookie mistake). I will not be dosing anything. I simply wanted to know if an air stone to my back chamber would raise my PH too much or too fast and thanks to Randy for answering that.

I will go against my philosophy and test my PH before adding the airs tone and after and report back when my tank crashes miserably because I didnt test my alk...

Now I understand why this board turns people off from the hobby. If I had a dollar for every first post in the hobby someone has made and their goal is a softy tank with some easy fish and 5 people tell them to test Alk,Calc,Mag,Phos,N03,N04,PH starting day one and every week I would be rich.
hey my corals are all dead, is it because my radions are under powered? If everyone just answered no, this would be a pretty pointless forum. We said to test the other perams as that is the first go to method that pretty much everyone (aside from you apparently) goes to first for pH. If you don’t want to do it, then don’t. But don’t ask for help and then throw a tantrum because you don’t like the advice you got.

Yes, you can add an air stone to bring o2 into your tank. But if your tank pH is low because of CO2, it’s because the air around your tank has too much CO2 and an air pump pulling from that same air won’t help. If it’s not low from CO2, and is something else, then the air stone isn’t going to fix the other problem. So based on the info we have, no an air stone is not going to raise your pH too quickly.
 

GK3

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No, I dont NEED to test my alk and wont, I reject your demands. To me testing 4 things and adding chemicals is not more simple than experimenting with adding an air stone.


Let me be more clear. I run an extremely simple system. No ATO, no skimmer, no powerhead, no dosing anything, no testing, just large religious water changes and it works well for almost 2 years. I have had one mini crash in which nothing died because I experimented with not doing a water change for 2 months then did a big one (rookie mistake). I will not be dosing anything. I simply wanted to know if an air stone to my back chamber would raise my PH too much or too fast and thanks to Randy for answering that.

I will go against my philosophy and test my PH before adding the airs tone and after and report back when my tank crashes miserably because I didnt test my alk...

Now I understand why this board turns people off from the hobby. If I had a dollar for every first post in the hobby someone has made and their goal is a softy tank with some easy fish and 5 people tell them to test Alk,Calc,Mag,Phos,N03,N04,PH starting day one and every week I would be rich.
Also - if testing pH before and after you add the air stone “goes against your philosophy”, I can only assume you mean your philosophy of not testing things. So how in the first place do you even know your pH is low?
 

amazongb

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Geze, I don't even test Ph, maybe that's my problem
No, I dont NEED to test my alk and wont, I reject your demands. To me testing 4 things and adding chemicals is not more simple than experimenting with adding an air stone.


Let me be more clear. I run an extremely simple system. No ATO, no skimmer, no powerhead, no dosing anything, no testing, just large religious water changes and it works well for almost 2 years. I have had one mini crash in which nothing died because I experimented with not doing a water change for 2 months then did a big one (rookie mistake). I will not be dosing anything. I simply wanted to know if an air stone to my back chamber would raise my PH too much or too fast and thanks to Randy for answering that.

I will go against my philosophy and test my PH before adding the airs tone and after and report back when my tank crashes miserably because I didnt test my alk...

Now I understand why this board turns people off from the hobby. If I had a dollar for every first post in the hobby someone has made and their goal is a softy tank with some easy fish and 5 people tell them to test Alk,Calc,Mag,Phos,N03,N04,PH starting day one and every week I would be rich.
This reply is a little rough for people trying to help you. Since you posted in Randy's sub, maybe you just want only replies from him - if so, state that in your post like "hey, no offense, but I only want to hear form Randy on this one". You can dose baking soda to raise ph.. but the poster was saying that you should test alk before you do something as simple as adding something cheap and simple like baking soda. If you don't want to test alk, then hell yeah, add an airstone and go ham with it :)
 
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Also - if testing pH before and after you add the air stone “goes against your philosophy”, I can only assume you mean your philosophy of not testing things. So how in the first place do you even know your pH is low?
I never said my ph was low. And i said i dont test, you just didnt read my comments.

Geze, I don't even test Ph, maybe that's my problem


This reply is a little rough for people trying to help you. Since you posted in Randy's sub, maybe you just want only replies from him - if so, state that in your post like "hey, no offense, but I only want to hear form Randy on this one". You can dose baking soda to raise ph.. but the poster was saying that you should test alk before you do something as simple as adding something cheap and simple like baking soda. If you don't want to test alk, then hell yeah, add an airstone and go ham with it :)
As ive said, i dont want to dose. Id say harsh is demanding someone test alk when they simply asked about an airstone. But play victim for all i care
 
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hey my corals are all dead, is it because my radions are under powered? If everyone just answered no, this would be a pretty pointless forum. We said to test the other perams as that is the first go to method that pretty much everyone (aside from you apparently) goes to first for pH. If you don’t want to do it, then don’t. But don’t ask for help and then throw a tantrum because you don’t like the advice you got.

Yes, you can add an air stone to bring o2 into your tank. But if your tank pH is low because of CO2, it’s because the air around your tank has too much CO2 and an air pump pulling from that same air won’t help. If it’s not low from CO2, and is something else, then the air stone isn’t going to fix the other problem. So based on the info we have, no an air stone is not going to raise your pH too quickly.
I didnt throw i tantrum i explained my situation and explained why people are turned off to this hobby from this forum. You over complicate things to feel important. I asked about an airstone and i have 2 people demanding i test alk when i specifically said i dont want to dose, so that doesnt matter. The other guy is still talking about dosing. I nwver asked how to raise my ph or said i had a ph problem. I asked a very specific question about an airstone and almost everyone but randy ignored it and over complicated my very simple question.
 

attiland

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because it is a simple solution. No idea what my alk is, dont test. No skimmer or powerhead but the entire surface is well agitated with just the return.
If you have no skimmer you likely will succeed with an air stone. I done the same. I don’t run skimmer at the moment. I have managed to go from 7.5 to 8.2. In my case the issue was that I have a glass top on the aquarium slows down air exchange. I didn’t want to remove it so my alternative was an air stone. Keep in mind alkalinity was correct while ph was low.
no harm in trying
 

|Tom the Bomb|

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No, I dont NEED to test my alk and wont, I reject your demands. To me testing 4 things and adding chemicals is not more simple than experimenting with adding an air stone.


Let me be more clear. I run an extremely simple system. No ATO, no skimmer, no powerhead, no dosing anything, no testing, just large religious water changes and it works well for almost 2 years. I have had one mini crash in which nothing died because I experimented with not doing a water change for 2 months then did a big one (rookie mistake). I will not be dosing anything. I simply wanted to know if an air stone to my back chamber would raise my PH too much or too fast and thanks to Randy for answering that.

I will go against my philosophy and test my PH before adding the airs tone and after and report back when my tank crashes miserably because I didnt test my alk...

Now I understand why this board turns people off from the hobby. If I had a dollar for every first post in the hobby someone has made and their goal is a softy tank with some easy fish and 5 people tell them to test Alk,Calc,Mag,Phos,N03,N04,PH starting day one and every week I would be rich.
ok do what u must an air stone might raise ph and it might not but it definitely won't raise ph too fast especially if ur surface is already agitated good with gas exchange and stuff
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Everything ive ever read and been told says aeration of the water surface will raise PH, and I want to get my PH to 8.3- 8.5 its seems to be all the rage lately.

I have good water agitation in my little 10 gallon tank but the back camber of the all in one has no surface agitation. An air stone would aerate the whole back chamber. You dont think that will raise the PH at all?
You read wrong, or chose the wrong articles to trust. My article above makes it clear that aeration can raise or lower pH or have no effect at all. In my tank it lowered pH when I reduced aeration.

It depends entirely on the relative amount of CO2 in the water and in your home air (or other source of air used).
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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I never said my ph was low. And i said i dont test, you just didnt read my comments.
Let's back up and explain some things.

When someone says

" I want to add an airstone to the back chamber of my AIO to raise my PH. The tank is only 10 gallons. Is it possible this will raise my PH too much or too fast? "

any reasonable person would assume that you have reason to believe your pH is low. If it isn't low, why do you want to raise it?

If all you want is a simple answer to your exact question without any understanding of the complexities involved, i gave it many posts ago (post #3 in this thread):.

" There is no chance aeration will raise pH too fast. It might not raise it at all. "


But of course, you will never know if it is any effect on pH, or what that effect is since you aren't measuring it. :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I didnt throw i tantrum i explained my situation and explained why people are turned off to this hobby from this forum. You over complicate things to feel important. I asked about an airstone and i have 2 people demanding i test alk when i specifically said i dont want to dose, so that doesnt matter. The other guy is still talking about dosing. I nwver asked how to raise my ph or said i had a ph problem. I asked a very specific question about an airstone and almost everyone but randy ignored it and over complicated my very simple question.
I'm sorry you are turned off by folks trying to help you understand that chemistry may be more complicated than a one word answer.

Some folks appreciate a detailed answer, and they often come here as a recognized source of reliable chemistry information since the hobby is filled with chemistry misinformation.

Some folks do not care for the detailed answer, and for them, a simple take away is enough. If that fits your needs, you got that and only that in the third post in this thread.

Finally, I give highly detailed explanations of many chemical principles in many answers to avoid the impression that chemistry is just a "he said, she said" sort of topic. In fact, there are right and wrong answers to many questions. Chemistry is not an opinion. Opinions come into play in what to do with the information, such as what way is "best" to do something.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I’ve never run across your posts on here but this is the second time today I’ve encountered you dropping chemistry knowledge,
You must not read the chemistry forum much. I run this forum and respond to most threads in it. With my 38,700 posts, you cannot read much here and not run into me (for better for worse).

I was reading through this and while I can’t quite find why exactly the OP is looking to raise pH in this manner, I disagree with your last statement that running O2 through the water will lower the CO2 or N2 in the water. I forget the name but there is a law or theory out there that points to solubility of CO2 vs. the other diatomic elements in our atmosphere. CO2 is far more soluable. However, this same law/theory shows that when you take normal atmospheric air and place it in contact with aquarium water, it will drive towards equilibrium which will pull O2 in and drive out N2 and CO2. This is also a similar method used in fishery systems but they use pure O2. There is also a similar method used and I’ve heard of them being called stripping towers, where they use normal air. Not sure if that’s the industry term though. But either way, if you force air that is empty of CO2 through water, it will help to drive out the CO2. They key is making it free of CO2. Maybe I just said what you did, but it seemed like you were saying the addition of O2 has no effect on CO2 and I don’t believe that be the case.
I'm certain I did not mention N2 in this thread at all. Are you referring to a different thread?

You are probably referring in general to Roults law or a variant of it:

.

There are many complications to using such laws to apply to our reef tanks. The most important of which is that the tank is often not at equilibrium with the air around it. If it were, there would be ZERO pH change day to night. Since almost no reef tank has zero pH change (due to photosynthesis consuming CO2 and respiration adding CO2), the water is not at equilibrium with the air.

But, to expand specifically on the relationship between O2 and CO2...

Many processes we use impact only one and not the other, thus, the simple thought that photosynthesis consumes CO2 and makes O2, and respiration consumes O2 and makes CO2 are not the only game in town. Maybe not even the most important ones in a reef tank. So they do not move in tandem.

Let me give some hypothetical examples that show how these processes might impact a reef tank:

1. I carefully bubble pure 100% O2 into a reef tank. The bubbles all dissolve fully before reaching the top and popping. That clearly adds O2 to the water and has no impact on CO2 or pH.

2. I carefully bubble pure 100% O2 into a reef tank. The bubbles partly dissolve fully before reaching the top and and then pop at the top. That clearly adds O2 to the water and will remove some CO2 that entered the bubble that was extremely low in CO2 to begin with. By Roult's Law, CO2 entered that bubble to bring it toward equilibrium with the water, and when it popped at the surface, that CO2 was released to the air. Thus, CO2 in the water was lowered, and the pH rose.

3. This is #2, but with N2, not O2. I carefully bubble pure 100% N2 into a reef tank. The bubbles partly dissolve fully before reaching the top and and then pop at the top. That clearly adds N2 to the water and will remove some CO2 that entered the bubble that was extremely low in CO2 to begin with. By Roult's Law, CO2 entered that bubble to bring it toward equilibrium with the water, and when it popped at the surface, that CO2 was released to the air. Thus, CO2 in the water was lowered, and the pH rose. By the same process, O2 entered that bubble to bring it toward equilibrium with the water, and when it popped at the surface, that O2 was released to the air. Thus, O2 is lowered and pH rises.

4. This is #1, but with CO2, not O2. I carefully bubble pure 100% CO2 into a reef tank. The bubbles all dissolve fully before reaching the top and popping. That clearly adds CO2 to the water and lowers pH. It has no impact on O2. Thus, CO2 rises, pH falls, and O2 remains the same.

5. I carefully bubble pure 100% normal outside air into a reef tank. The bubbles partly dissolve fully before reaching the top and and then pop at the top. This is the example of a person running outside air into a skimmer. O2 CO2, and N2 all move toward equilibration with the gas in the bubble (normal air). Whether each of those enters or leaves the bubble depends entirely on whether the water is supersaturated or undersaturated with respect to that air bubble. What exactly happens will vary greatly between reef tanks and between times of the day on a given reef tank.

Bonus section...

There is a huge complexity that is typically ignored by even chemists discussing such issues in reef tanks, and that is the pressure inside the bubble. A bubble below the surface is under more pressure than at the tank top. That pressure tends to drive all gases into the water, more so than the same air at the tank surface. Thus, air bubbles driven deep into aquarium water will tend to drive up O2, CO2 (lowering pH) and N2 compared to that same air aerating at the tank surface. This is complex to model and understand because bubbles move rapidly between different pressure zones, and equilibration of gas is a slow process, not an instantaneous one.
 
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Let's back up and explain some things.

When someone says

" I want to add an airstone to the back chamber of my AIO to raise my PH. The tank is only 10 gallons. Is it possible this will raise my PH too much or too fast? "

any reasonable person would assume that you have reason to believe your pH is low. If it isn't low, why do you want to raise it?

If all you want is a simple answer to your exact question without any understanding of the complexities involved, i gave it many posts ago (post #3 in this thread):.

" There is no chance aeration will raise pH too fast. It might not raise it at all. "


But of course, you will never know if it is any effect on pH, or what that effect is since you aren't measuring it. :)
In my experience reasonable people assume nothing, im sure youve heard the quote on that one.
You answered half my question in the 3rd post here.

I'm sorry you are turned off by folks trying to help you understand that chemistry may be more complicated than a one word answer.

Some folks appreciate a detailed answer, and they often come here as a recognized source of reliable chemistry information since the hobby is filled with chemistry misinformation.

Some folks do not care for the detailed answer, and for them, a simple take away is enough. If that fits your needs, you got that and only that in the third post in this thread.

Finally, I give highly detailed explanations of many chemical principles in many answers to avoid the impression that chemistry is just a "he said, she said" sort of topic. In fact, there are right and wrong answers to many questions. Chemistry is not an opinion. Opinions come into play in what to do with the information, such as what way is "best" to do something.
I never said i wanted a yes/no or simple answer. I just wanted the answer to my question about airstones, not people demanding i mess with my calc/alk.
Your 3rd post said it may or may not raise ph then asked why i thiught it would raise ph (even tho its common knowledge), i dont consider that a detailed answer at all.

Next time ill go to my LFS for questions like i usually do. This has been exhausting for a simple question about an air stone. There was no need to complicate it.
 

homer1475

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And with a refusal to test anything, why even bother trying to raise your PH? If you don't test at all, how do you even know your PH is on the low side, or need to be raised?

People like you just want to be spoon fed information, and want it right now and it must align with what they thought regardless of whether it's right or wrong. Maybe you should go back to your LFS and they will tell you exactly what you want to hear so when everything dies or goes wrong, they can sell you more stuff.

To answer the OP:
Without testing no one can answer the question correctly. Your house maybe CO2 rich, which in that case adding an airstone will only cause it to drive CO2 levels up in the tank causing PH to lower. Could it work, probably, will it work, we don't know your situation or the concentration of CO2 in your home. .
 
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And with a refusal to test anything, why even bother trying to raise your PH? If you don't test at all, how do you even know your PH is on the low side, or need to be raised?

People like you just want to be spoon fed information, and want it right now and it must align with what they thought regardless of whether it's right or wrong. Maybe you should go back to your LFS and they will tell you exactly what you want to hear so when everything dies or goes wrong, they can sell you more stuff.

To answer the OP:
Without testing no one can answer the question correctly. Your house maybe CO2 rich, which in that case adding an airstone will only cause it to drive CO2 levels up in the tank causing PH to lower. Could it work, probably, will it work, we don't know your situation or the concentration of CO2 in your home. .
Quite hilarious you just tried a gotcha question without even reading my posts that would have answered your question.

Nobody even asked me about my houses c02 levels, which are low since i keep the windows open and i only spend a couple hours in this room a day.

Spoon fed? Seriously dude, hows that attack going to help this situation? I dont care how complex the answer is as long as its an answer to the question i asked. Why did you come here to post of youre not going to add anything anyone else hasnt already said and to make passive aggressive statement?

:mods: please close. This has turned sour
 

homer1475

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Yes it's quite possible to raise it to fast. What detrimental issues that might cause, I honestly do not know as I have never had that problem.

Does this asnwer your question now? Straight forward without any explanation of how or why.
 
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Now I understand why this board turns people off from the hobby. If I had a dollar for every first post in the hobby someone has made and their goal is a softy tank with some easy fish and 5 people tell them to test Alk,Calc,Mag,Phos,N03,N04,PH starting day one and every week I would be rich.
You asked a question. Knowledgeable people answered your question or asked for more information so they could answer appropriately. You did not like the answers you got and lashed out at the people who were trying to help you. But its R2R that has the problem, turning people away from the hobby?

#MODS, can this thread be closed? Its not about information or answers anymore and may be violating TOS.
 

EMeyer

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Where did this recent "chasing pH" thing come from? Did BRS make a youtube video promoting this view or something?

Natural reefs don't sit at 8.3-8.4 all day long, they fluctuate from below 8 to slightly above 8 every day.

When my pH probe died about a year ago I didnt bother to replace it, because it doesnt freaking matter* (*within the range of pH values that occur in saltwater in an aquarium with adequate gas exchange in a well ventilated home). The range of pH that occurs in every tank I've ever seen is within the range that occurs on a natural reef.

Or measured inaccurately, that happens a lot too. When was the last time you did a proper two point calibration on your pH electrode? These things can drift quickly in some cases.
 
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You asked a question. Knowledgeable people answered your question or asked for more information so they could answer appropriately. You did not like the answers you got and lashed out at the people who were trying to help you. But its R2R that has the problem, turning people away from the hobby?

#MODS, can this thread be closed? Its not about information or answers anymore and may be violating TOS.
Show me one post that asked me for more information, everyone hede made assumptions and then demanded i do unrelated things. I didnt like the answers because they had nothing to do qith my question and were based on assumptions. You say i lashed out, so you come in here and lash out as me? Nice. #MODS please close. This is turning into nothing more than personal attacks against me for trying to keep this thread on topic of an air stone, i never asked about dosing my tank and everyone is very offended i dont want their advise on dosing or testing.

Where did this recent "chasing pH" thing come from? Did BRS make a youtube video promoting this view or something?

Natural reefs don't sit at 8.3-8.4 all day long, they fluctuate from below 8 to slightly above 8 every day.

When my pH probe died about a year ago I didnt bother to replace it, because it doesnt freaking matter* (*within the range of pH values that occur in saltwater in an aquarium with adequate gas exchange in a well ventilated home). The range of pH that occurs in every tank I've ever seen is within the range that occurs on a natural reef.

Or measured inaccurately, that happens a lot too. When was the last time you did a proper two point calibration on your pH electrode? These things can drift quickly in some cases.
Yes, BRS and reef builders both think 8.3 to 8.5 is best for color and growth
 
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